How about creating more reasons not to go crit?

I'm really just thinking out loud here--so please feel free to rip my ideas to shreds, fellow forumers.

I'm thinking maybe items or passives on the skill tree that give bonuses to non-critical hits.

It could be a bit more complex than that: For example, an item that adds 30% chance to shock (or whatever) but simultaneously causes all critical hits not to shock (or, alternatively, all critical hits to only shock at the same 30% rate, though I think that is less interesting a drawback).

Touch of Anguish (its ambiguous mechanics description notwithstanding) is a good example of what I'm talking about, but I'd like to see you step it up a notch.

Instead of making crit harder to obtain, or less desirable (via reflect or other mechanics which tend to annoy more than legitimately challenge), perhaps you can instead (or additionally) make non-crit more desirable per se.

Might be something worth thinking about after the xbone release is out and stable, and you have more room to breathe.
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Yep they should add some advantage to RT but also some non-crit options on the right side of the tree. I did a raider non-crit blade flurry physical/poison build last league and the damage was just horrible in yellow maps and up (which is sad considering how OP those skills/builds are as crit)
The main advantage of non crit builds is how they can handle reflect. But I agree that there should be more. They should simply add some great nodes (a wheel of 4 or 5) BEHIND the rf node and everything would be fine. Something like three or four 8% life nodes plus a major node like "steelskin - your char is immune to bleeding".
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Yeah, this one's been brought up a lot. There's too much incentive to go crit... it's the best for dps by a very wide margin, and it gets plenty of other added benefits for seemingly no reason (cuz 'best dps' doesn't need additional perks). Guaranteed ele status ailments, gaining flask charges, numerous on-crit effects from various passives and uniques...


...meanwhile non-crit gets ele overload. And RT doesn't even get that. But oh wait, there's controlled destruction!... oh right, the 'downside' to that is laughable insignificant and perfectly usable on crit builds.




Like, crit offering better dps is fine... it does take more investment, after all. I could easily argue the degree to which its dps is better is too high atm, but it's perfectly expected for it to be better to some extent. But all the other benefits? And the lack of alternatives for non-crit? It's not right.


Crit shouldn't apply status ailments automatically; that should be gated behind 'chance to freeze/ignite/shock' mechanics.

Furthermore, Controlled Destruction should be '100% LESS chance to crit', making it unusable by crit builds (it should specifically be '100% less chance to crit', not 'cannot crit'... the former would still leave you at the minimum crit chance, 5%, so that you could use ele overload and similar mechs). It should also be 'more spell AND ATTACK damage', rather than only spell damage, making it usable by non-crit attack builds as well (which desperately need another multiplicative support).
Last edited by Shppy on Apr 22, 2017, 3:20:40 PM
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Shppy wrote:
Yeah, this one's been brought up a lot. There's too much incentive to go crit... it's the best for dps by a very wide margin, and it gets plenty of other added benefits for seemingly no reason (cuz 'best dps' doesn't need additional perks). Guaranteed ele status ailments, gaining flask charges, numerous on-crit effects from various passives and uniques...


...meanwhile non-crit gets ele overload. And RT doesn't even get that. But oh wait, there's controlled destruction!... oh right, the 'downside' to that is laughable insignificant and perfectly usable on crit builds.




Like, crit offering better dps is fine... it does take more investment, after all. I could easily argue the degree to which its dps is better is too high atm, but it's perfectly expected for it to be better to some extent. But all the other benefits? And the lack of alternatives for non-crit? It's not right.


Crit shouldn't apply status ailments automatically; that should be gated behind 'chance to freeze/ignite/shock' mechanics.

Furthermore, Controlled Destruction should be '100% LESS chance to crit', making it unusable by crit builds (it should specifically be '100% less chance to crit', not 'cannot crit'... the former would still leave you at the minimum crit chance, 5%, so that you could use ele overload and similar mechs). It should also be 'more spell AND ATTACK damage', rather than only spell damage, making it usable by non-crit attack builds as well (which desperately need another multiplicative support).


attacks already have enough more multiplier gems

for melee its melee physical/weapon ele dmg
for ranged its physical proj attack/weapon ele dmg
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ciel289 wrote:
attacks already have enough more multiplier gems

for melee its melee physical/weapon ele dmg
for ranged its physical proj attack/weapon ele dmg


in most cases weapon ele damage isn't as great of a more multiplier as it looks. For it to be efficient, you need most of your damage to be converted to elemental, and if you do that you run into resistances that you don't have to deal with as physical and that severely diminish the usefulness of that high-looking more multiplier. What winds up happening with trying to optimize WED is you wind up giving yourself a pretty tooltip dps that's not actually nearly as good as it seems, because as soon as you run into anything with resists (i.e any boss or unique monster, many base types of monsters, and quite frequently rares/magics) you're losing 1/3 or more of your pretty-looking tooltip damage.

That is, unless you can convert to a single element so you can use penetration, or if you use inquisitor (which is crit, meaning that case is irrelevant to non-crit attackers). In the case of building for a single element, you can get around those extra resistances with penetration, but... well, in that case, you're going out of your way to get both conversion AND penetration just to get access to WED...

...Just look at the case of the guardians and shaper, who have 40% ele res. By going full conversion, you need to use a penetration gem just to bring them back down near zero (cuz with 80% less curse effect you're sure as hell not battling that with ele weakness and the like) at which point you're eating up a gem link just to make your *actual* dps accurately portray your tooltip dps. That's something that staying pure physical can do without using up any links. And it's pretty similar when dealing with other map bosses (who are generally at 30% ele res and have 60% less curse effect) or magics/rares/uniques with resist affixes. Or enemies that just implicitly have ele resists (like ALL breach rares, for example).


TL;DR: WED *looks* like a nice 'more' modifier, but in reality tends not to be so great for real dps, at least where it counts the most (against tough enemies that don't die in a hit or two). And with the damage not really being an advantage, and without being able to easily access ele status ailments as non-crit, going conversion-WED often is quite inefficient compared to the limited alternatives. Controlled Destruction affecting attacks would add another decent alternative (and reworking status ailments to not be guaranteed on crit while having more %chance to freeze/ignite/shock available would help make non-crit conversion less of a drag too, as they'd at least have the ailments to make up for the difficulty of facing resists).
Last edited by Shppy on Apr 22, 2017, 7:40:22 PM
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666lol666 wrote:
The main advantage of non crit builds is how they can handle reflect.

So non crit builds deal less damage, so it's an advantage against reflect ????
Not it isn't, RT users cannot dodge the reflect hits for example, and anyway, "they are worse so it makes that part of the game better for them" isn't justifying anything at all.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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Fruz wrote:
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666lol666 wrote:
The main advantage of non crit builds is how they can handle reflect.

So non crit builds deal less damage, so it's an advantage against reflect ????
Not it isn't, RT users cannot dodge the reflect hits for example, and anyway, "they are worse so it makes that part of the game better for them" isn't justifying anything at all.


He didn't really say that. Non crit builds have a more consistent DPS output which means easier to handle the reflect.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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Turtledove wrote:
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Fruz wrote:
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666lol666 wrote:
The main advantage of non crit builds is how they can handle reflect.

So non crit builds deal less damage, so it's an advantage against reflect ????
Not it isn't, RT users cannot dodge the reflect hits for example, and anyway, "they are worse so it makes that part of the game better for them" isn't justifying anything at all.


He didn't really say that. Non crit builds have a more consistent DPS output which means easier to handle the reflect.


um... crit isn't particularly inconsistent. It's really not hard to get 90+% crit chance these days, meaning the damage isn't spikey at all... it's just consistently way way above non-crit, which is why it's more susceptible to reflect. Which does pretty much mean his point stands.
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Turtledove wrote:

He didn't really say that. Non crit builds have a more consistent DPS output which means easier to handle the reflect.


Which is very wrong if you take RT (attack build of course).
And as Shppy said about crit chance nowadays ...
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz on Apr 22, 2017, 10:20:04 PM

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