whirling blades vs rest of movement skills

With 2.6 they are trying to make daggers for crit spellcasters less of a must. Another reason for using daggers is the attack speed roll you can get, combined with Whirling Blades.

Whirling Blades easily outshines every other movement skill in the game.

Lets look at them along these lines:
Speed.
Ease of use, meaning more likely to save you.
Investment required.

Note that I am considering the skills according to their primary function: Getting around fast and avoiding death.

Whirling blades:
Pros:
Super fast: Travels a good distance and percievably is instant on cast.
Zero investment in passives necessary, making builds with natural synergies incredible.
And one that I weigh incredibly strongly: The skill triggers towards your cursor no matter how far away it is. This single mechanic alone is very impactful. Why? Because movement skills are for "oh shit!" situations, where accuracy is challanged. Clicking outside of bounds with Flame Dash or Shield Charge = no dash/charge. A far distance with Lightning Warp = longer cast time.

Cons:
Cant move up/down ledges.
With zero other investments requires a good attack speed roll.

Flame Dash:
Pros:
It is technically a teleport. In theory you can avoid projectiles.
Decently fast. Faster stop animation than Whirling Blades or Shield Charge.
You can jump up and down ledges.

Cons:
Its limited to 3 charges, with a pretty long cooldown, making it laughable to the rest for clear speed.
It is not percievably instant cast like Whirling Blades.
Its a radius skill, by which I mean it requires you to be in range of destination before activating, save for holding shift. Comparatively, this drastically lowers its ease of use.
It requires heavy investment in cast speed which takes passive points and or jewels etc.

Lightning Warp:
Pros:
With heavy investment it can move you around the map fast.

Cons:
Untill it is high level it is the most awfull of the movement skills, being very slow, with a long delay before moving.
Requires heavy investment to be reliable at avoiding death, due to relying on cast time and duration so heavily.
Requires 2 support gems, both faster casting and less duration, while the rest require only 1 support. A massive disadvantage.
Destroyed by increased duration passives.

Shield Charge:
Pros:
Percievably instant upon cast.

Cons:
Slower than Whirling Blades and Flame Dash because of a slightly slower travel speed, with a similar stop animation to Whirling Blades.
If you click around the feet of the character with Whirling Blades or Flame Dash, you move a decent amount. With Shield Charge, you do this interresting move that keeps you in place while giving you a stopping animation.
Its a radius skill like Flame Dash, requiring you to hold shift to be sure to move when you need to, which is instantly.
Restricted to builds using a shield.

If your using a 2 handed melee weapon or a bow, then youre pretty much set with Blink Arrow or Leap Slam. Ive always felt Whirling Blades was the best feeling, fastest compared to these as well. But my experience is limited. If you want to contribute with some pros and cons please do. Otherwise we're focused on the skills in direct competition.

The fact that Whirling Blades has the least investment of passives required. Is very fast, easy to use, and has no charges, is a clear as day explanation why it is so overused compared to the other movement skills.

To my mind the second strongest option is Flame Dash, if you take into consideration the required investment. The strongest advantage that needs to outweigh its charge mechanic, is the ability to jump ledges. No boss fight that I know off values this ability. (And im not asking for it).

It is a shame the movement skills are not better balanced. The speed and ease of use of Whirling Blades has made it the only movement skill that has ever felt comfortable to use for me during bossfights.

Feel like there is anything I missed? Let me know.

Shield Charge actually scales better/easier/and in the end faster than Whirling blades. It takes speed from more sources than WB.

I'm starting to like shield charge more and more but yeah WB is just too good without investments.
I hate Flame Dash with a passion. I've probably died more time where it didn't do anything since I was clicking outside of radius then times it actually saved me. They really need to change it so you go to the max distance in that direction. I use it more as a gap clear combined with WB/SC for normal movement.

"

Docbp87 wrote:

Shield Charge actually scales better/easier/and in the end faster than Whirling blades. It takes speed from more sources than WB.

Do you prefer it over whirling blades?

How do the investments scale?

Shield charge is the best, no competition, but its mostly a matter of preference

Note: ya plumb forgot Leap Slam, man. As well as Blink Arrow. Yeah, neither are usable for dagger builds (outside offhand maces), but you didn't specify 'dagger builds only' and led your post with "now that GGG is trying to make daggers less important..."

Anyways.

If you use your movement skill purely as a feet replacer and a boss dodge button, then yes - Whirling Blades is kinda the only thing that need apply. This is bad, not good, and it's something GGG are actively investigating.

Some folks really value map traversal, though. I cannot really get along without some way to jump ledges; even on characters of mine that use Whirling Blades, I'll often end up stuffing Lightning Warp in an off socket somewhere just to get the ability to jump ledges back (and cheat Lab trap runs). Yes yes, I know, Not Optimal(!!!), but what can I say - Flame Dash feels utterly awful to use and Leap Slam is weapon-restricted. Gotta get muh jumpiness somewhere.

Frankly I'm all for a redux on the game's movement skills in general. Heavily de-emphasize Whirling Blades as a feet replacer (you want to get around the map, WALK. This streamer thing of "hold your movement skill For Great Clearspeed!" sucks all the rocks and needs to go), rebuild Flame Dash to not blow goats, and just refactor movement skills in general to be more about positioning in tougher fights or being actual skills a'la Leap Slam or Shield Charge. Give Whirling Blades charges or a cooldown if you have to. Whatever it takes to give actual movement speed its job back.

"Whirling Blades easily outshines every other movement skill in the game"


No, Shield Charge is by far the best. There's a reason Vaal Spark uses Shield Charge instead of Whirling Blades now. The thing with Shield Charge is that it scales with MS. So an adrenaline quicksilver makes it godly. Throw in attack speed and you shit on whirling blades.

Shield Charge also has bigger AoE, which makes it easier to sustain fortify.

Sorry dude, you are wrong.

"

ArniQQ wrote:

"Whirling Blades easily outshines every other movement skill in the game"


No, Shield Charge is by far the best. There's a reason Vaal Spark uses Shield Charge instead of Whirling Blades now. The thing with Shield Charge is that it scales with MS. So an adrenaline quicksilver makes it godly. Throw in attack speed and you shit on whirling blades.

Shield Charge also has bigger AoE, which makes it easier to sustain fortify.

Sorry dude, you are wrong.

I get your point about shield charge, and Im sure your right. Still you need the MS investment, so WB seems better to begin with. Also there is the radius mechanic, which I personally cant stand about SC and FD.

"

1453R wrote:

Note: ya plumb forgot Leap Slam, man. As well as Blink Arrow. Yeah, neither are usable for dagger builds (outside offhand maces), but you didn't specify 'dagger builds only' and led your post with "now that GGG is trying to make daggers less important..."

Anyways.

If you use your movement skill purely as a feet replacer and a boss dodge button, then yes - Whirling Blades is kinda the only thing that need apply. This is bad, not good, and it's something GGG are actively investigating.

Some folks really value map traversal, though. I cannot really get along without some way to jump ledges; even on characters of mine that use Whirling Blades, I'll often end up stuffing Lightning Warp in an off socket somewhere just to get the ability to jump ledges back (and cheat Lab trap runs). Yes yes, I know, Not Optimal(!!!), but what can I say - Flame Dash feels utterly awful to use and Leap Slam is weapon-restricted. Gotta get muh jumpiness somewhere.

Frankly I'm all for a redux on the game's movement skills in general. Heavily de-emphasize Whirling Blades as a feet replacer (you want to get around the map, WALK. This streamer thing of "hold your movement skill For Great Clearspeed!" sucks all the rocks and needs to go), rebuild Flame Dash to not blow goats, and just refactor movement skills in general to be more about positioning in tougher fights or being actual skills a'la Leap Slam or Shield Charge. Give Whirling Blades charges or a cooldown if you have to. Whatever it takes to give actual movement speed its job back.

I should have included them. I guess i just assumed that if your using a bow or 2 handed melee then youve only got the fitting options? Ive never used them much. If anyone can contribute with some pros and cons for Leap Slam and Blink Arrow that would be cool.

From what Ive used them, blink arrow seems like a faster Lightning Warp with a sort of diversion double. Dont know if it pulls any aggro at all. Leap Slam I assume is the only option for two handed melee?

I like your sentiment about making walking a thing. People usually assume there will be an outcry because people have gotten used to the speed. I dont know, Im with you. But that would require some overall different, slower gameplay. Im all for it.

Otherwise they should atleast be balanced better.

My list in order of how I find skills useful:

#1 Lightning warp
Pros:
- not blocked by obstacles
- not limited by max distance (best gap closer)
- fastest movement around map
- good for EE flipping on small / medium packs / rares / bosses
- does not require any specific item type to use
- least affected by temp chains (just my observation, it feels so compared to other skills)
Cons:
- not an attack so no fortify
- somewhat harder to scale for non casters (Quality gems make quite huge difference though)
- not as brain-dead-easy to use as Whirling Blades or Shield Charge for movement
- very high mana cost, nearly impossible to sustain for non casters

#2 Shield Charge
Proc:
- large AoE -> no need for accuracy, you'll get the fortify on packs anyway (but sucks @ bosses)
- no cap on minimal or maximal distance
- can be good interrupt in attack build
- endurance charges on melee stun for attack builds
- low mana cost, easy to sustain
Cons:
- u need to use attack-in-place (shift) button to get max distance charges
- great for headbutting every small obstacle you might find on floor
- no gap closing
- item type restrictions

#3 Leap slam
Pros:
- simple straightforward animation (no animation speed crap as with SC and WB)
- good AoE -> no need for accuracy, you'll get the fortify on packs anyway (but sucks @ bosses)
Cons:
- scales only with attack speed (bad for casters)
- limited distance (bad gap closer)
- item type restrictions
- you must use shift
- high mana cost, not so easy to sustain

#4 Whirling blades
Pros:
- something you can use dual-wielding and with not already covered weapon types (daggers, claws, etc)
- attack so fortify
Cons:
- absolutely atrocious animation and scaling with distance
- nasty animation lock at the end (unless u have tons of AS) <- can be somewhat mitigated by only whirling at minimal distance
- limited both min and max distance
- item type restriction
- no AoE -> accuracy needed for reliable fortify for casters (especially @ bosses)
- no gap closing
- high mana cost, not so easy to sustain
- great for getting stuck on every small obstacle you might find on floor

#666 Flame Dash (Hall of Shame)
Pros:
- teleport
Cons:
- this skill is just bad
- very very bad as movement skill
- limited uses
- very limited distance

I won't list blink arrow as you can't really say it is meant for movement (6s cooldown), but rather as escape / gap closer and it is great for that (fast animation, distance not limited, etc).

I don't really use other skills with tag movement as they are boring / tedious to play (Cyclone) or are too chaotic to be useful (Flicker). Phase run have huge down side of losing frenzy, but you get %More damage buff and with last Raider buff it might be good option for just 2 links, haven't tested this.

Phase Run is actually interesting on builds with a lot of duration in the tree as a general mobility option, and is the only movement skill where "hold For Great Clearspeed!" actually makes some sense. PR > Inc. Duration > Fast Cast is a set-up I used on an old max-duration Blade Vortex character (y'know, back when Blade Vortex was good), and it provided some intriguing options for positioning. Especially since you could often dive into a pack of critters and start Vortexing up before the critters at the edges of the pack even started attacking you.

Also makes Vorici "lockpick the box" missions an absolute breeze, and there's intriguing applications to the stealth for some totem builds if you have the duration anyways for other skills. It's surprisingly good at getting you out of a rapidly decaying situation.

It's very situational though, and does frog-all for instant boss dodgery. Not worth the links on a super-optimized set-up most of the time, but could be fun for something like an Earthquake Raider or the like looking for some lulzy Ninja Action. It is a pretty hefty 'More' bonus to single melee hits.