New attribute "Effective HP" in character screen
|
Calculating the received damage manually for each damage type is a real pain in the ass and does not make fun for many players - very theoretical... However especially for new players knowing what really hurts them and what not is really important.
Some examples:
Spoiler
1. It took me a while to carry out that physical damage reduction from armor is less effective than the physical damage reduction of endurance charges / chaos golem etc. (reason for that can be looked up here: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Armour/math ). 2. It took me a while to carry out that the "increased physical damage taken" from abyssus goes multiplicatively in the the damage rather than additively. It actually says that the player takes (40 - 50) % more physical damage. When it comes to damage calculation a lot of stuff have to be taken into account: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Receiving_damage Holy cow, I do not think we can request all players to understand all of this - especially when you are new in the game. So how can you receive all these informations without knowing the mechinics behind damage calculation??? The answer is: Effektive HP (EHP) The idea:
Spoiler
Currently it works like:
Monster damage --> final damage reduction (curse, charges, res., armour, flasks etc.) --> HP loss The defender gets as feedback only the HP loss displayed (happens quite fast, but it is displayed). 'Monster damage' and 'Damage reduction' are unknown variables. Yeah POE displayes the 'estimated' physical damage reduction, but it does not take into account if you are cursed with vulnerability or if you use enfeeble yourself or if you use abyssus and thus is even misleading - especially for new players. So actually currently you do not get the final damage reduction. Since POE calculates every hit anyway, the 'final damage reduction' number does exist and needed to be used. If you combine the 'final damage reduction' with your own HP you get the EHP: 1. In case of abyssus (with 50 % increased damage taken) it says when you have 5000 HP and zero (just for simplification) physical damage reduction --> EHP becomes: 3333 HP ( 5000/(1+0.5) ). 2. Lets say you have 5000 HP, 75 % fire resistance + buffed enfeeble 36 % less damage --> EHP becomes: 31250 HP ( 5000/(1-0.75)/(1-0.36) ). And for non-fire hits (with no other mitigation) just considering enfeeble --> EHP becomes: 7812.5 HP ( 5000/(1-0.36) ). 3. Lets say you have 5000 HP, 75 % fire resistance + buffed enfeeble 36 % less damage + fortify + 75 % spell block chance --> EHP becomes: 156250 HP ( 5000/(1-0.75)/(1-0.36)/(1-0.75)/(1-0.2) ). And for non-fire, non-spell hits (with no other mitigation) just considering enfeeble and fortify --> EHP becomes: 9765.6 HP ( 5000/(1-0.36)/(1-0.2) ). Acutally there is one page that helps me a lot to understand how the calculation works: https://fiddle.jshell.net/dsgqe8rr/embedded/result/ What I am suggesting now is to implement the Effective HP value (EHP) ingame for: - EHP chaos - EHP fire - EHP cold - EHP lightning - EHP physical damage Ingame calculation:
Spoiler
For EHP calculation see section "The idea". The value for these damage types should be logged and displayed as a mean value. I am not sure what meets the purpose best either the mean value considering time (e.g. physical damage of the last 5 sec.) or considering the number of hits (e.g. physical damage of the last 3 phyiscal damage hits).
- If you do a map with a vulnerability mod and you recieve physical damage then you will have a lower EHP for physicial damage in this map. - If you are fighting a huge boss which almost ignores your armour physical damage reduction then it will lower your value. - If you forget to get endurance charges (e.g. Enduring Cry) then it will lower your value etc. Example (EHP physical): Let's say you got 5000 life, 3 endurance charges + basalt flask + 10k armour 1. Hit: (2500 dmg): 12681.2 HP ( 5000/( (1-(0.12+0.2+ ( 10000/(10000+10*2500) ) ) ) ) 2. Hit: (3000 dmg): 11627.9 HP ( 5000/( (1-(0.12+0.2+ ( 10000/(10000+10*3000) ) ) ) ) 3. Hit: (8000 dmg): 8789.1 HP ( 5000/( (1-(0.12+0.2+ ( 10000/(10000+10*8000) ) ) ) ) The displayed value would be the mean value of the last e.g. 3 hits (or e.g last 5s) EHP physical: 11032.7 HP The benefit:
Spoiler
1. When it happens ingame the effects of your endurance charges or enfeeble will also be taken into account. If you forget to cast anything of it, it will lower your value. 2. I think it would make the undestanding about how defence in POE works much easier. And these happens all without knowing how dodge / spell block / physical damage reduction etc. works. Players will get easily recommended values for range or melee builds. Something like _Map level_|_recommanded EHP ____20____|_________500____ ____40____|________3000____ ____60____|_______10000____ ____80____|_______30000____ 3. And the biggest benefit of it is that players can optimize / compare much easier the defence of their builds which will due to less dieing and more gameing fun what is in all of our interest. Tell me your thoughts guys! - I am thankful for any support regarding the matter "Quantify easily your overall defence" - EHP physical (one shot physical dmg or with dodge, evasions, block?) - what do you think is a recommanded EHP value for e.g. T11++ maps? 30k or 100k? Last edited by Wp_blitzi on Feb 27, 2017, 3:46:14 PM Last bumped on Mar 1, 2017, 9:31:46 PM
This thread has been automatically archived. Replies are disabled.
| |
|
up
| |
|
I am not sure if this is what we need, but i am all for making information more easily available ingame, so ill bump!
I am the light of the morning and the shadow on the wall, I am nothing and I am all.
|
|
|
It would be quite pointless since monsters have extremely varying amounts of damage and players don't know the value's.
Lets say you have like in your example 2500EHP vs physical.(5000 + 50% abyssus reduction + 0 base physical mitigation) What does this tell you that you did not already know? You don't know the monster side value's so it doesn't do anything towards risk assessment other then "yes i am more vulnerable to physical damage, the end" And even if we knew the monster side attributes, the amount of variables introduced to them when you enter maps make knowing that pointless as-well. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
| |
|
Can't hurt.
Small mistake in your example: 5000 HP with 50% increased damage taken results in 3333 HP. (5000/1.5) Online delenda est:
When the lifecycle of PoE will draw to an end many years from now, there needs to be a final patch making it available offline. |
|
" Ok I added some points to understand better the benefit. Howevere one example: Let's say you are lvl 50 and you have 2000 EHP and the adviced value would be 2500 EHP for the char lvl or map lvl. Then you know you have to buff you EHP e.g. invest more skill points to get you life up or use fortify or ... The higher the map level the more defence becomes important and the value to quantify easily your overall defence is still missing in POE. " Thanks for your help! Could you check the other example as well pls. Last edited by Wp_blitzi on Feb 24, 2017, 9:04:03 PM
| |
|
Gladly.
In your 2nd example EHP against fire hits are: 5000 / 0.25 / 0.64 = 31250 = 5000 / (1-0.75) / (1-0.36) = 5000 * 4 / 0.64 To help you imagine this: 75% fire resist means you only take a quater of the incoming damage, therefore quadrupling your EHP. Against non-fire hits (with no other mitigation) it is: 5000 / 0.64 = 7812.5 That's what Enfeeble alone does for you. Online delenda est:
When the lifecycle of PoE will draw to an end many years from now, there needs to be a final patch making it available offline. |
|
" You are really good in this calculation. For my defence in a lot of other threads calculations about defence are also asked and not completely understood, e.g.: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1676002/page/236 However just for my understanding. If I add fortify + 75% spell block chance the EHP for fire would be = 5000 / (1-0.75) / (1-(0.36+0,2) ) / (1-0.75) = 181818.2 right? I guess you need then at least 100 k EHP for T11++ maps!? Last edited by Wp_blitzi on Feb 25, 2017, 6:29:44 PM
| |
" Well, they can't do this for physical damage without estimating or using some other weird system because the effective HP changes depending on how large the hit is. I guess they could base the physical damage effective HP on the size of the physical hit required to one shot you, because a physical one shot penetrates the most amount of armor and is the "low-end" in terms of effective HP. So yeah actually I think this is a pretty good idea and wouldn't actually be as hard to figure out as I thought. my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes ----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982 on Feb 25, 2017, 11:17:29 AM
|
|
" Fortify is a reduction on your side that is applied after resists (http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Fortify) 5000 / (1-0.75) / (1-0.36) / (1-0.75) / (1-0.2) =156250 The state the game currently is in means that rather than having a certain ehp threshold you have to meet, you have to be able to survive the hits you do take and then gain your hp back fast enough. I used to think elemental damage was balanced around havin 75% resists, then I thought you just need a little more mitigation - now I think monster damage is balanced around the fact that they deal no damage while they're dead. In short: clearspeed meta, one shot fest. Online delenda est:
When the lifecycle of PoE will draw to an end many years from now, there needs to be a final patch making it available offline. |
|
