Conversion effectiveness. Comparison of weapon phys conversed and spell ele dmg. (+build, need help)

Let's take for example:
1) Bow with phys, phys increases
2) Bow with 100% conversion phys to lightning, 100% lightning to cold.
Penetration more effective when monsters have high ele resistance, but they don't.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1821710

Does penetra will be effective with regular physical build where 100% damage converted to ele, than same penetra with regular ele build?

I wanna make bow crit build with:
Lightning Arrow + Phys to Lightning support + Cold Penetra (50%+50% phys to light, 37% cold penetra)
2 Call of the Brotherhood (sum: 100% lightning to cold, 50% light dmg)
The Pandemonius (30% cold dmg, 20% cold penetra)
And reach about 70+ %penetra. I can't find way to gain on tree more ele increases than phys node offers. Is there any way to gain better scaling cold damage? Southbound http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Southbound
looks good, but taking cold nodes - i will lose crit and phys dmg very much.

Here is my tree
http://poeplanner.com/AAQAAPkWAAB6sNii2VHZsJL_kxa_tUjrYxEvKwpd8g5ItzAUCRNtJohjQ_GKEZZ_xsHF7BgsvxXXhq5WY6KjwfOVIC0fTLPQH-_rHU81uacrRX4OXGr6IG5QMI_60NBfagMeH0G0xcLsBbUajVsmf_uNv_rrkvNeRVFH51Qk_f_eN9TtPzB8fys51Hb3Mfqgn1b6d9cUdVuvIXaGzsEz5eacxLciGNsuI5OZu57t13TxKaURUG0ZD8Q7fLjK2VsbJUuu6QLfikcG8uFsCNvndf2Eb9RC2GDXLUkPTioj028nmmrIzO-P328qC3BSIzZTEBewSouEogeZWfBMjgAAAACJAAAAEAKGARQAAwFwFwABZAAEBwAbAqYAFAAGAQgHAcgAAvoA9AEBjAAB6AMABh8AABsCVwAAAQGgAAUB-gAB-gABkAEB9AEB6AMAAAAbAlcAAAEBoAAFAfoAAfoAAZABAfQBAegDAAAAGQJHAgABASwBBQEsAQGQAQEKAAAByAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=

Total:
+273% crit multi against full life (233% other) = 4x damage (3.5x)
+764% crit chance against full/low life (382% other) = 43.2% with 5% base crit against full/low. Without gear. Need MORE. But also i need ES+EV. How to raise?
+184% total physical projectiles
+124% cold dmg with Pandemonius (is it enough to Southbound starts work good?)
+50% lightning dmg (for phys will scaled with cold increase)
71% cold penetra with gem and Pandemonius
Tree EV and ES are only +160% both. It's low for CI build? Where i can grab more? Which dmg nodes to sacrifice?
I have good DoT nodes for puncture on bosses, is it possible to keep them? Or i need to remove them first for build survivability?
I don't decided yet how to gain power charges.
I don't have good ES recharge, will Iron Reflexes good for me on endgame?

edited: With all this i wanna make reversed knockback with Empire Grasp + Chin Sol (100% more dmg at close) + point blank. And second 6-link will be multi trap mirrored arrow minions.

IR is pretty moody mechanism, but doable to drag 5k life chars ass to rare t10-11 so far, so I guess answer is "yes, it might be good. If it'll be in mood, that is :S". Add some reduction on top of it, too (AA, ToH)

With ~350% c.chance on tree, 3 power charges, Ice golem, 8,8% base crit bow and 19/20 inc. strikes gem I'm around 85% crit chance iirc. Doesn't look good at first, but I don't use Rat's Nest nor Maligaros nor Spike point quiver, that's around 150% crit chance. And first of all I roll raider not assasin, so I think you shouldn't be worried about that.

I can't give you details about ele penetration, never used this on ranger. You scale "output" 100% cold dmg with just scaling "input" phys dmg, tho. So no need for specific ele nodes.

Vitalidy void + vaal pact should fix es recharge issue at all.

"

skuadak wrote:

IR is pretty moody mechanism, but doable to drag 5k life chars ass to rare t10-11 so far, so I guess answer is "yes, it might be good. If it'll be in mood, that is :S"

My english not so good) What do you mean by "mood" - not necessery? I think pros for using IR instead Eva+pool is that you can don't afraid physical oneshot, and time to react - use flask or other save button. Cons is that you can't normally recharge your ES in battle, becouse every hit will stop recharge. And i don't have recharge nodes (faster start ES rech, faster ES rech rate). So, what is better? But i have 1,6% ES leech from tree. Don't know, is it enough.

"

skuadak wrote:

Add some reduction on top of it, too (AA, ToH)

For reduction dmg AA is Arctic Armour, but what is ToH?

"

skuadak wrote:

Vitalidy void + vaal pact should fix es recharge issue at all.

And what do you think about CI pool with +160% ES and +160% Eva increase?) I still have 5 jewel sockets and item slots: Helm, Body, Boots, Belt, Quiver. It's enough for capping ele resistance even without Quiver. With tree and uniqs i need 235% ele res more on 4-5 rares. But how about ES boost?

ToH- taste of hate saphire flask, turns up to 20% into cold damage.

which isn't that gg in case of CI mayby, on second thoughta because freezes.
To be honest I never used it on CI char.

"

"

skuadak wrote:

Vitalidy void + vaal pact should fix es recharge issue at all.

And what do you think about CI pool with +160% ES and +160% Eva increase?) I still have 5 jewel sockets and item slots: Helm, Body, Boots, Belt, Quiver. It's enough for capping ele resistance even without Quiver. With tree and uniqs i need 235% ele res more on 4-5 rares. But how about ES boost?

So far I just went "pack it till it's ok", I don't even know how much total %inc my CI which has. For archer it's gonna be slightly harder to pack CI, too. Gimme 10 sec pls.

edit: (I'm guessing more than concluding here)
10-11k should be ok till red maps, as archer is kinda more "ranged" even than caster, but, you'd need rly good gear to have this much with just 160% es inc (i belive).

~250% inc on tree and ~400 int gives you 11k with this gear. For details:
"Cantdiewtf"elementalist
You won't have any es on quiver slot, you may wanna keep head/gloves for rats/maligarios and you won't have this much int probably. So either good eq or more nodes.

But honestly my CI experience is 1,5 which "lolwtfdoido" build and 0 archers, so Im hardly even able predict how its gonna be workin

The es % is quite low tbh. I usually aim for 200%+, when counting in % from int, conversions of life nodes via energy from within jewel and % es on jewelry etc it probably ends up at 300%+.

Iron Reflexes... ES is typically far stronger with evasion than with armour, I try and get good evasion rating on all my ci chars, I use armour on almost none of them. Only time I combine armour with CI is for aegis aurora shield block characters.

When you convert its the same as just being ele, if youre 100% cold damage then pen for you is exactly the same as it is for a freeze pulse or ice nova spell build.


Ok, regarding this tree, Im not sure the ascendancy stuff makes total sense. Noxious Strike in the assassin ascendancy, causes bleeding, poisons against bleeding. Bleeding damage is based on your total physical damage, you have 0 phys damage as ur ele conversion, poison is based on phys + chaos, and again you are full ele conversion with only a little chaos coming Toxic Delivery. So I feel like these ascendancy points and all the tree passives spent on damage over time are wasted?

Youll want some mana leech from the vitality void cluster too, a 0.4% node will do it.

maybe something like this would be better...

http://poeplanner.com/AAQAAPkWAAB6sNii2VHZsJL_kxa_tUjrYxEvKwpd8mND8Yp_xsHF7BgsvxXXhq5WY6KjwfOVIC0fTLPQH-_rHU81uacrRX4OXGr6IG5QMI_60NBfagMeH0G0xcLsBbUajVsmf_uNv1FH51Qk_f_eN9TtPzB8fys51Hb3Mfqgn1b6d9cUdVuvIXaGzsEz5eacxLciEVBtGQ_EO3y4ytlbGyVLrukCRwby4WwI2-d1_YRv1EJOKiPTbyeaasjM74_fbyoLcFKPYPDVSVGVBdnGMpR_AqbgCIma8V1oyqltbOd02xoQe7469UvBAOjWIzZTEBewSosyMhCS2Ya8bwAAAACJAAAAEAKGARQAAwFwFwABZAAEBwAbAqYAFAAGAQgHAcgAAvoA9AEBjAAB6AMABh8AABsCVwAAAQGgAAUB-gAB-gABkAEB9AEB6AMAAAAbAlcAAAEBoAAFAfoAAfoAAZABAfQBAegDAAAAGQJHAgABASwBBQEsAQGQAQEKAAAByAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=


way more damage, a bit more energy shield.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

When you convert its the same as just being ele, if youre 100% cold damage then pen for you is exactly the same as it is for a freeze pulse or ice nova spell build.

I mean a bit other :). How much magnitude (values) reaches flat phys, before it will increased by phys+ele increases, compared to flat cold damages from cold spells. Maybe bow phys higher then cold spells, and this way conversion gives profit (with penetra better use bow phys+convers instead cold spell).

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Bleeding damage is based on your total physical damage, you have 0 phys damage as ur ele conversion

Are you sure? Or i should check? Couse it radically changes the situation and makes me sad. On the other hand - it's good news too, becouse free many nodes. And your fixed tree looks optimal.

Ok, let me show down. With all this i wanna make reversed knockback with Empire Grasp + Chin Sol (100% more dmg at close) + point blank. And second 6-link will be multi trap mirrored arrow minions. What do you think about this style of offence with my survivability background?

I think cons is that much mobs will just shatter before i will drag in them close. Or i need start attack at close. Maybe without point blank? Let mirrors drag in mobs, while i will just do dmg from afar.

"

I mean a bit other :). How much magnitude (values) reaches flat phys, before it will increased by phys+ele increases, compared to flat cold damages from cold spells. Maybe bow phys higher then cold spells, and this way conversion gives profit (with penetra better use bow phys+convers instead cold spell).

Speaking about potencial: Average bow skill (SA) on average geared raider, with 5L setup does this much damage:


Raider is in my profile. Plain one I belive. (or even the plainest, heh)
I have no idea how to compare this with spells tbh, (but it's kill just fine imo.)
Adding Hatred and Added Fire for 6th link nearly doubles the toolpit, and that's not even conversion yet. With PtL it's even more damage. With, LA or Ice Shot and Reach bow and +1 arrow at quiver it should
be even better. I have no idea, I never did this.
I have no idea how does it look in comparsion to spells in general, but above skill and setup is, well, not the most popular atm ;p. Which is also good news I guess.

I never tried penetration on archer (which isn't ele archer too much, first of all.). I neglected it on caster but elementalist may have its inbuild penetration from ascendancy, which I used (spoiled) and which did the job in most cases.
So yea, you are on your own %)

"

skuadak wrote:

So yea, you are on your own %)

Ok. Can you explain me one more moment? Other build.
https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/wraith797/characters
Charecter: OM_Galactus. He tries to gain intelligence from each item. Int gives flat lightning dmg (by claws). It's almost none phys dmg, we can say its pure lightning.
With ~1300 int and 2 claws HoWaA he gain ((1+6)/2) * (1300/10) = 910 flat lightning
+97% attack speed (always on 6 frenzy)
+133% proj dmg
+134% lightn dmg
Without items.

As it was said before: we should gain flat dmg for element which will be converted, and gain increases for result ele. But we already have good flat, and doesn't matter how much cold dmg increase from tree, couse we have enough ele dmg nodes, and have only lightning dmg.

Trying to make with this build same thing: 2 Brotherhood (100% light to cold), and gain some cold nodes. But we will lost too much: about 70-100 potential int and 65% elemental dmg (rare Opal Rings with Wpn Ele Dmg mod) its 50-70 flat lightning and up to 130% ele dmg.
We will gain +54% cold dmg for 4 nodes, and +50% lightning dmg from 2 Brotherhoods.

Lets try to raise flat lightning: Add Light Dmg support 20lvl gives us only +180 flat light dmg, compare to 910 from intelligence by claws, its low, about +20%, while we have so much good gems which gives MORE dmg. Like ele focus, WED, faster attack, point blank.

Eventually, for this build: raising flat for element which is converted - is bad. Raising flat cold with Cold dmg support - seems will be even worst. Wasting more nodes to cold increases from tree can't compensate even ele increases loosing from Opal Rings. Not to mention flat light from intelligence.

What's wrong with these Brotherhoods? Ok, i know, some uniqs are build-forming, and top rolled rares often can be better then uniqs. But these conversion profit just don't work with Opal Rings? Why? Where is a point in this build, when conversion starts to be ineffective? Is it possible to make this build better, with conversion?

I'm bit lost, so I'll clarify few things:

-You run archer with pure phys bow, flat phys on gear, and crits rolls.
-You scale damage just with phys dmg/proj/generic damage nodes plus attack speed and crit multi nodes.
-You pick LA+GMP (if no Reach bow yet) and use PtL support, at this point you have 100% lighting damage. You shouldn't use ele damage nodes or flat ele damage rolls on gear, tho. And WED only there, where it's nothing better to roll (i.e. quiver and./or belt)

Now goes climax:

-you wear 1 Brotherhood, damage turns 50%cold/50%lightning
-you wear 2 Brotherhoods, f%k me if I know what's gonna hapen. Mayby it's gonna be 100% cold, or just 75%cold/25%lightning? Or 2nd ring does nothing at all and you only waste space for life, and flat phys?

Seriously I don't rly understand the big picture, so mayby some1 else would give you a hand.