Problems with Spells that don't get mentioned.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

First off, theres the 6L mana cost. Its absurd and even with investment into mana it becomes impossible to sustain. There simply isnt any amount of regeneration that can let you cast a 120+ mana cost multiple times per second.

Then don't try to cast expensive spells so frequently. Really, the game needs more severe resource limits, not an unlimited blank check to spam whatever you please as fast as you like.

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RogueMage wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

First off, theres the 6L mana cost. Its absurd and even with investment into mana it becomes impossible to sustain. There simply isnt any amount of regeneration that can let you cast a 120+ mana cost multiple times per second.

Then don't try to cast expensive spells so frequently. Really, the game needs more severe resource limits, not an unlimited blank check to spam whatever you please as fast as you like.

Uh im not ? LOL

I generally just read responses after posting these kinds of things but this one is just silly. Spell Echo is the only thing people usually link unless theyre gem swapping, outside of that people take up some cast speed, not alot, usually off their weapons. Id say on average a player has something like 10-20% cast speed on one or two weapons, thats it.

My 5L Arc/Tendrils right now is 73/74 mana respectively per cast. I have a .31 cast time, that means i cast 3 times per second, expending 219/222 mana per second. I have 29% increased cast speed off my weapons and absolutely none on my tree. My mana regen without clarity is 45, with 82. I do have some mana regeneration on the tree as well but without taking my statements out of context youd see the part about mana leech. The only reason people sustain their spells now is because of mana leech. People spending multiple points in reduced mana or replacing jewelry and inefficiently solving the problem while also severely crippling their build.

Do i think you can absolutely make a build that only casts here and there ? Sure, if youre ignite or degen maybe, thats not the case with Lightning Spells however.

Thats not even a 6L cost and that isnt even with more expensive supports, lucky the way my build works as of now is cheaper than what youd see in others. On many spell builds 4 CPS and 100 mana per cast isnt unheard of.

Point being, relatively no investment into cast speed and the mana cost is already that high. This isnt some Ghudda max cast speed build or something, this is literally just the most generic base amount you get in end game.

I said similar things in this forum quite a while back.

People responded with the same replies, lol invest in mana omg u just want to be able to spam expensive 6L spells without any investment lol ur bullshit etc etc... I had high mana and mana regen on all my jewellery and literally had 50% of the mana notables on the entire tree specced, even had mana and mana regen on my weapon running a lvl21 clarity... but you know, lol u dont want to invest in mana blah blah pleb responses. One guy said I should spend X amount of points into mana not including hybrid nodes, I forget the exact number but I worked it out on the tree that it meant taking every single mana notable on the entire tree except for 1, if I left out mind drinker and took every other notable across the entire web including the stuff in the duelist etc it would meet the amount of nodes I was apparently supposed to be speccing on every spam caster. comments like "use reduced mana", if you have reduced mana in a 6L that means you cant afford to fuel your 5 link, you cant even take comments like that seriously.


They did actually buff mana a fair bit after that, it went from a situation where I would cast like 2 spells and be out of mana to casting 6 or 8 times before I ran out, it felt a lot better. You still need to leech for what I would consider the fun spells, stuff you spam out there at enemies. I have flameblasters, essence drain, chars like this who have no mana leech at all, run purely on regen, works fine. Spamming like arc, ek, anything like this I still think its impossible to fuel it off mana regen, I take every mana node I can reach then put on ridiculous gear with flat mana and mana regen everywhere and it doesnt come anywhere close to being able to sustain casting, you have to have warlords mark up for the leech. Its much better than it was though, you can get to a point where you can put out a fair bit of dps, back off to regen, spam a bit again, cool off, that playstyle can kind of work for spells like ek that can obliterate stuff in small time frames to a certain extent.


I like the changes they made, I think its in a better spot. Its stopped being an issue that I care a lot about, Im not about to make a thread like this or campaign for change in someone elses but I would say that its still leech it or gtfo, on a lot of spells you use warlords mark or you dont use the spell, you simply cannot sustain on mana regen regardless of any investment that still leaves you with a functioning build.

'functioning build'..

you have 5k to buy yourself a gun. there are two options:

- spend 4999 on a shiny good gun with all the grips, fancy sights, holsters and whatnot
- or spend 3999 on a less shiny but still good gun with basic equipment AND some ammo.

which one of these two is a 'functioning gun'?


mana is a soft cap in this game. why you guys feel entitles to spam 6L spells while reserving most of your mana, ignoring mana flasks and claiming that any pure mana nodes are 'wasted nodes'? you want shiny? pay for it.

GGG solved mana issues some time ago: they have fixed melee mana costs (thus making people no longer run BM gem - they were shooting themselves in the foot but it was just dumb anyway) and they recently removed 'less mana regen' mods from maps. right now it is regen or no regen. that mod alone was the issue. and it is gone - now one can rely on mana regen for sustain without constantly rerolling maps (while no-regen mod is an 'adapt or rerol' mod - thats ok).

it is a player that decides that he wants to reserve 90%+ of his mana pool. noone forces players to do it (no, desire for higher tooltip is not 'forcing') - unreserve one of your auras + mana flask and there, problem gone. this is an extreme solution ofc and hardly needed - but it is still a solution


mana system is a soft cap on the damage. just like items having just 6 links instead of 30 ('but there are 30 support gems i want to useeee.. /whiny voice/') and player having just ~100 passives before the lvl95+ slog begins. soft caps force decisions - this is good for the game

"mana is soft cap on dps"... yeah it would be if there were no Blasphemy+WM combo

this combo is already a pressure on your build: it takes mana reserve AND takes curse slot (in a curse-effect heavy game) and it fails when you happen to miss too many times. it fails on no-leech maps as well

it is strong and for most cases it is enough but it can and will fail (esp vs bosses when this 2% mana leech turns into something like .6% mana leech)

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sidtherat wrote:

'functioning build'..

you have 5k to buy yourself a gun. there are two options:

- spend 4999 on a shiny good gun with all the grips, fancy sights, holsters and whatnot
- or spend 3999 on a less shiny but still good gun with basic equipment AND some ammo.

which one of these two is a 'functioning gun'?


mana is a soft cap in this game. why you guys feel entitles to spam 6L spells while reserving most of your mana, ignoring mana flasks and claiming that any pure mana nodes are 'wasted nodes'? you want shiny? pay for it.

stop being a fool, who claimed pure mana nodes are wasted? Whos spending 4999 on shiny good gun? When you have mana and mana regen on all your jewelry and you have taken every single mana notable and aura reserve cluster in the span of your build across 1/3 to 1/2 the entire tree and you still cant fuel your spells thats not spending 4999 on shiney gun, thats not claiming pure mana ndoes are waste. Youre just making up bullshit, enough with your nonsense.

Same idiot bullshit u were spouting when I made a thread like this, oh dont want to invest in mana wha wha, clueless drivel that doesnt match reality.

^ Are you supposed to outregen that high spell cost? I thought 8% max mana/sec regen will not allow 100% uptime of spell that eats 20% mana pool/sec, that's by design, so you either don't spam the spell and use downtime to kite or whatever, or find other mana recovery sources while regen is secondary one. Mana flask + 1 aura less and all mana problems are gone.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

'functioning build'..

you have 5k to buy yourself a gun. there are two options:

- spend 4999 on a shiny good gun with all the grips, fancy sights, holsters and whatnot
- or spend 3999 on a less shiny but still good gun with basic equipment AND some ammo.

which one of these two is a 'functioning gun'?


mana is a soft cap in this game. why you guys feel entitles to spam 6L spells while reserving most of your mana, ignoring mana flasks and claiming that any pure mana nodes are 'wasted nodes'? you want shiny? pay for it.

stop being a fool, who claimed pure mana nodes are wasted? Whos spending 4999 on shiny good gun? When you have mana and mana regen on all your jewelry and you have taken every single mana notable and aura reserve cluster in the span of your build across 1/3 to 1/2 the entire tree and you still cant fuel your spells thats not spending 4999 on shiney gun, thats not claiming pure mana ndoes are waste. Youre just making up bullshit, enough with your nonsense.

Same idiot bullshit u were spouting when I made a thread like this, oh dont want to invest in mana wha wha, clueless drivel that doesnt match reality.

Stop getting pissed off for no reason. Sid is pretty much on point here. If your build can't handle the mana expenditure that you subject it to, you either want too much, or there's something wrong with your gear and your passives.

Don't get me started on how shit like arc and tendrils aren't actually decent spells in this state of the game. Arc in particular is abyssmal, and tendrils is just "LOL" for single target. Of course there's an issue with mana sustain if you also want these spells to do anything in higher tier maps. No surprise there.

I know this is about mana but my biggest issue with spells is how much the base damage between spells differs, for example Fireball has literally double the damage of Arc while both have similar AoE if you build for it. On another note, fire being soooooo much better than lightning or cold is also stupid.