life vs ES - what 2.5 brings us..

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grepman wrote:
Also I'm not sure why you'd use that new chest as a raider. It seems great for those who cannot take acro normally. Ie IR toons or block toons.

I guess an IR raider could be a thing but it doesn't seem super synergizing at all.

If you have max block on other hand, it's pretty crazy

Im thinking about using this chest on my Marauder tbh, 30% spell dodge and free AA is pretty hard to pass up regardless of the lower stats and -30% cold resist. At the very least im certainly going to try it out.
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sidtherat wrote:
well, ive tested breaches (english is my 3rd language but am i right thinking breaches are some kind of trousers?) in standard using this:


Basically, yes! :P I made this pun in my guild chat the other day. It's spelled "breeches" when it means trousers.
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Another note about the belt since I just thought about it.

I am actually more likely to use this Belt when I go CI with my Raider than I would do when I go Eva or Hybrid, and that is essentially the issue.
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Emphasy wrote:
Another note about the belt since I just thought about it.

I am actually more likely to use this Belt when I go CI with my Raider than I would do when I go Eva or Hybrid, and that is essentially the issue.
is it because you can go afford to give up the ES and res on belt when youre CI but not when you're life ?
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Emphasy wrote:
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onslaught is cool (mostly movement speed because aspd is most likely already in the 100s) but there is a flask for that (raiders have little reason to not use it) and even without flasks my raider never had issues keeping this stuff up


Well you can't keep up onslaught on bosses. And this belt allows that, and exspecially on bosses the Evasion Chance is pretty important. And you don't need the chest Perfect Form just enables you to be Hybrid Armor/Eva while still having Phase Acrobatics, because honestly you can use that Belt as a raider even if you are not Hybrid. This single benefit of having Onslaught on bosses, because you won't necessarily be able to keep up a flask (which you actually said before yourself).

The one flaw in the raiders onslaught tree is that it is not avaible on bosses. And as much as I agree that you likely already have a lot of AS getting 40% increased Attack Speed is still a huge damage buff.

And honestly yes the buffer is smaller on life, but then again people massively overestimate how many things actually exhaust 5k HP. There is hardly a need to have more.

CI is miles ahead, compared to Life, but it often sounds as if the game is unplayable as Life, you can do any content in the game with a Life based build even though you might actually have to dodge a few things were a CI char will just stand there and take the beating.

And I also never got hit by Izaro for 5,5k HP unless it was one of the attacks you are supposed to dodge and even then he would need a few buffs for that, but the ones you have to take are a lot weaker, considering you have Fortify, Arctic Armor and in such a fight likely even a few Endurance Charges and even more you have a rather decent Evasion rate too, which means that even if you fail to manually avoid an attack you might get lucky.

People also overstate how easy it is to get 8k ES with CI. It is not too hard anymore, but exspecially the transition can be difficult and it isn't something you just do. Getting 5k HP on the other hand is not too hard, if you are pushing 6k that is were the trouble starts. CI has a lot more freedom on boots, gloves and helmet because most of their ES comes from Shield and Chest, while the life values on all items are hardly different, but a Chest can give 900+ ES, I think a Shield 500+, this alone is a bigger difference than Life has. Exspecially shields seem lacking for Life Builds because they offer so much less than for CI. Exspecially with Acrobatics using a Shield hardly makes you any more tanky. Your evasion rating likely is already so high that the Shield might only give you a few percentage points, that won't do much and not more HP than a Quiver. And the Block Chance is heavily reduced due to Acrobatics.


So I generally agree on the premise that life is worse than CI, that is hardly debatable. However I can't see how that has any effect on this Belt. Just to be very technical now. However considering how weak the actual mod is that gives you attack damage you can totally wear that Belt with CI and considering that if you go CI on raider (you wouldn't more likely you take an Assassin for that) you will lack movespeed... a lot. So getting this belt just for the essentially perma 20% movespeed might even be worthwhile. So if there is an issue, then that this belt might be better for a CI char than it is for an actual hybrid, because a CI char can live with sacrificing the ES from a Crystal Belt, while a Life based build has a hard time not having a Leather Belt with 100+ HP.

I think the belt would be in a much better spot if it would have at least 70 HP. Which is still not high for a belt, but considering you are sacrificing the slot with the highest possible amount of Life you can get you should get something good for it and I agree it is hardly worth it. I don't agree that you cannot play with a lot less life it will be more dangerous, but then again in Standard that hardly matters, because you might die, but it is hard to notice before reaching 90+. And the speed you get from the belt might actually be worth it.



i have around 40 lvl ~90 characters in standard. i know perfectly well how easy it is to die with 5k HP, sadly. i could 'buy' the 'belt slot gives your Raider 40% aspd and ms, thus it is cool' if i didnt know how little it matters in a sh.. storm that some of the boss fights are. i really - and i mean really - would rather wear +1 end charge belt with crap stats (or one of many common unique belts that give me something that SOLVE SOME PROBLEMS - like Wurm's Molt mana leech, freeing me from any mana woes, forever)

on the other hand this belt grants ~300 AR/EV and ~6% life so it is not that bad defensively. issue is: EV has a steep diminishing returns curve and after some point it is pointless to scale it and AR simply doesnt do much due to the magic formula it is based on

movement speed.. it matters, true. but daggers are the most popular item class for a reason: whirling blades. whirling blades make any movement speed purely cosmetic (you cannot WB in towns) and while WB is affected by aspd it is the local aspd roll on a weapon that makes all the difference.

for me this belt is THE SAME design initial Berserker class had: too much fluff, too much conditional boni that fail when needed and work when not needed and surprising restraint while at the same time giving free candy to ES players

note: Izaro with Essences or other elemental bonuses can EASILY hit you for 5.5k. been there done that and it wasnt pretty. and while movement speed is a huge boon in this fight - the area is cramped (by design) to limit kiting.

anyway, this is an OK belt, your character gets stronger with it compared to the empty slot ofc. but for a TOP TIER item it is a huge let down. the only thing keeping its prices up is rarity (ilvl80 minimum + just how f.. rare Vanguard belts are in general). however i strongly doubt people would go leaps and bounds for it just for the aspd/ms bonus it gives (fortify you need to get from other sources


PS. vaal breach gem is super cool without all this loot clutter i can see from league videos
That ammy would make low life RF even easier to run was my very first thought with it. That and low life but yeah its really is starting to get to the point going ES is almost always a better option in most cases. Not all but most.
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grepman wrote:
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Emphasy wrote:
Another note about the belt since I just thought about it.

I am actually more likely to use this Belt when I go CI with my Raider than I would do when I go Eva or Hybrid, and that is essentially the issue.
is it because you can go afford to give up the ES and res on belt when youre CI but not when you're life ?


It is basically that. I don't care about resistances too much, if you wear a shield you can compensate a lot there. And again as CI you get another Melee Multiplier, so losing out on the Dualwield multipliers isn't too punishing.

If you look at your items overall just check out which one gives you the most HP, it is usually a rare leather belt (or a unique like Headhunter). For some reasons Belts give you more HP than any other (rare) item. So making a belt that is aimed at a Life based Armor/Evasion hybrid wasn't such a good idea.

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on the other hand this belt grants ~300 AR/EV and ~6% life so it is not that bad defensively. issue is: EV has a steep diminishing returns curve and after some point it is pointless to scale it and AR simply doesnt do much due to the magic formula it is based on


6% Life is not really much though. I just depict it as nothing. If you have 2k base HP, which is a bit, this gives you 120 HP. A rare belt with 140 HP though will give you over 400 HP very likely. It is essentially a leather belt without another life roll and I wouldn't want that.

And I agree Eva over 50% doesn't do too much, again Raider is different, because you get 25% more chance to evade melee attacks with onslaught, so you might be able to aim for 67% essentially making only every 3rd attack hit you.

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i have around 40 lvl ~90 characters in standard. i know perfectly well how easy it is to die with 5k HP, sadly.


Oh to be fair, I played a Chaosstorm Trapper with 9k ES and it was incredible easy to die :P. However I personally die less on a very mobile character than I do on one that has a high buffer, because unless having lags or being terribly sleepy (or drunk) I'm decently aware of my surroundings. I usually don't play characters to 90, because it's boring, I usually start new chars in the 80s. So my point here is that it isn't so much harder to die with 6k HP, exspecially on painfully rolled red maps there are situations that are almost impossible to get out of unless you decide to never get into them in the first place.

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movement speed.. it matters, true. but daggers are the most popular item class for a reason: whirling blades. whirling blades make any movement speed purely cosmetic (you cannot WB in towns) and while WB is affected by aspd it is the local aspd roll on a weapon that makes all the difference.


Honestly I never got a dagger better than Binos :P and Binos sadly has no local Attack Speed roll.

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for me this belt is THE SAME design initial Berserker class had: too much fluff, too much conditional boni that fail when needed and work when not needed and surprising restraint while at the same time giving free candy to ES players


Well that is the thing. I'm thinking about going a bit Evasion/ES hybrid with a raider and using this belt for getting reliable Onslaught on bosses. But then again I might as well go just ES, depends on if I get that chest, I would like to try it out, but I could also see me using Skin of the Loyal which again is pretty much designed for ES chars, because again it equals a 300 to 700 ES chest (depending on how much ES your other items have and if you run discipline), while it has not a single point of life.


And again I don't even look at the Fortify on Melee Stun, I always use a Shield Charge - FA - Fortify Setup or the same on Whirling Blades, not having to use Fortify there would free up an entirely useless gemslot^^ (well I could place Vaal Breach there :P).

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