Primordial Golemstones - Awesome? [Y/N]

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tomatopotato wrote:
Sorry for the necrobump, but I believe this deserves some re-examination.

Another user on the forums, Shiverwarp, recently hypothesized that
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Shiverwarp wrote:
Magma Ball (the Flame Golem version of Magma Orb) works on a 3-charge system (similar to Desecrate, Frost Wall, etc.) and that the first stat [Golem Skills have 20-30% Increased Cooldown Recovery Speed] allows you to resummon golems faster AND reduces the cooldown for various golem abilities. (paraphrased)
I was really hoping we were going to get away with no-one noticing this one before we fixed it. This is indeed bugged - I only found out about the bug a couple of months ago. In some circumstances, the stat for the cooldown of the golem skill will also pass down to the golem. It's not supposed to, and because it's not meant to be doing that, the code to update minions doesn't update it, so it won't always be there, and could potentially stay on them after you've lost the stat. The bug is in the skill specific stats system in general, not just this specific case, but this is probably the most notably bad case. Unfortunately, the fact it affects the whole system means fixing it needs to be tied to checking over everything as a whole, and thus requires a lot of busywork. I also can't proiritise it over 3.2.0 stuff, so I can't say when a fix will be done.

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tomatopotato wrote:
Shiverwarp and I also feel this makes sense from the wording of the Primordial Harmony text. It makes things consistent with Support Gems as well. For example, if you link Faster Casting to your minions, they will both cast faster and be cast faster.
That is specifically meant to be behaviour of support gems. Not stats on your character for modifying skills.
RIP, Golems losing more than half of their cooldown reduction will be a serious hit to the builds.
To be fair, Golemancers are not typically hurting for damage. And perhaps, once the bug is resolved, they can look into buffs for Harmony and Eminence to make them remotely competitive with Might.
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Mark_GGG wrote:
I was really hoping we were going to get away with no-one noticing this one before we fixed it. This is indeed bugged - I only found out about the bug a couple of months ago. In some circumstances, the stat for the cooldown of the golem skill will also pass down to the golem. It's not supposed to, and because it's not meant to be doing that, the code to update minions doesn't update it, so it won't always be there, and could potentially stay on them after you've lost the stat. The bug is in the skill specific stats system in general, not just this specific case, but this is probably the most notably bad case.


Posted this as a reply in the Reddit thread on this topic:
Spoiler

Here's a chicken-or-the-egg thought. Does the fact that your passives don't apply to minions (and vice versa) determine how the passives are worded? Or is it the wording that determines how this particular arrangement works?

I believe Chris Wilson has stated that POE draws quite a bit from Magic: The Gathering, not just in terms of flavor, but also syntactic style. Distinct phrasing patterns are strictly adhered to in order to convey the games mechanics. Going back to how minion passives work, we often see passives phrased like this:

Minions have 10% increased maximum Life

Now is the "X have Y" phrasing exclusive to minions? Actually, no. We have a few (perhaps less prominent) non-minion examples as well:

Attacks have 10% chance to cause Bleeding
Spells cast by totems have 3% increased Cast Speed
Critical Strikes with Daggers have a 40% chance to Poison the Enemy

One way to look at these nodes is to point out that, of course, all of these apply to "you" the player still.

But another way to look at it is that "You have" is implied for the vast majority of (or perhaps all?) passive nodes that don't specifically have the "X-have-Y" phrasing. Following that, you could make the argument that all of the "X-have-Y" passives don't apply to "you" the player, but to the specific "X" in question, hence requiring explicit indication rather than being implied. Taking that one step further, you could say that "Golem Skills have..." applies directly to "Golem Skills" and not necessarily to the player. And if Golem abilities were to be tagged as Golem, well then... :)

Now, Mark did specifically say "your" in his reply, as you pointed out. But did he mean that in the POE sense or in the generic sense? I really hope he responds :P
Does this have a chance of being considered a valid argument for applying Golem Skill cooldown to golem abilities? :P

⚡ Lightning Golems:
/1902593
⛄ Ice Golems:
/1914382
Last edited by tomatopotato on Feb 20, 2018, 6:58:44 PM
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Shiverwarp wrote:
RIP, Golems losing more than half of their cooldown reduction will be a serious hit to the builds.
Yep, I'm already feeling kinda bummed. It's not like golems were that strong to begin with, especially compared to the current Spectre meta.
⚡ Lightning Golems:
/1902593
⛄ Ice Golems:
/1914382
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1453R wrote:
To be fair, Golemancers are not typically hurting for damage. And perhaps, once the bug is resolved, they can look into buffs for Harmony and Eminence to make them remotely competitive with Might.


The flame golem version particularly struggles in damage vs bosses already, which is where the cooldown is most important. This bug fix will remove Two thirds of the possible cooldown reduction (each harmony has a possible 30% + 15% currently, we'll be losing that 30% portion)
I feel like that's more to do with Spectres being busted beyond comprehension than it is golems being weak. Solar Guards are fucking stupid, and Tukohama's Vanguards aren't really much better. It's like...

"Take critter GGG has balanced to be a threat to the player as a one or two-off centerpiece of a larger pack."
"Allow player to make 6L-supported version of said critter."
"Allow player to build entire skilltree to grant said critter massive damage, life, and action speed boosts."
"Allow player to summon seventey-three of said critter."
"Remove all barriers and annoyances to Summon Spectre play."
"Wonder why Summon Spectre builds are utterly fucking ridiculous."
*shrug*
Called it.

:P

Considering Golemancers are in a good spot with this bug in play, personally I'd say it's fair to look at the effectiveness of %CDR for Golems post-fix? Can go either way; improve the stat, or reduce the innate cooldown. Even then, it would probably not be lossless.
How 'bout a new skill that causes all of your summoned Golems to explode violently, dealing 200% of their life as base damage of their respective element to everything within an Ice Nova's radius of themselves?

That sounds fair, right? Riiight? :P
I'm not sure. They might need to make it Vaal Ice Nova to be worthwhile.

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