End of the world as we know it..?

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innervation wrote:
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Bars wrote:
I'm not saying capitalism is bad by definition. It's just a stage of social evolution.

I'll just ask you to think long and hard about this big fucking assumption you're making about capitalism.


Perhaps this is far enough off the topic that you'll respond, despite asking to leave it alone, but in what way isn't the first quoted line also an assumption? People have been making that case for over 100 years, and the fall of capitalism as 'imminent' is central. According to the extremists of Christianity we've been living in the end times for about 2,000 years now, didn't you know? Mark your calendar, for Jesus will be returning any day now.

Which circles back to the OP nicely. OP - what makes you think you'll be seeing this 'in your lifetime'? What makes you expect that you'll be part of the 1% (or more likely 0.0001%) that survives the hypothetical 'reset button' of civilization on Earth?


Everything is an assumption.

Apart from that, I've never said the fall of capitalism is imminent, nor that it's a given. Judging from the information I have available to me, I think it is likely to happen at some point. Also, from what I know, I think it should better happen or we're pretty much fucked. I have a nagging suspicion it might already be too late but I choose not to think about it too much because it's not a constructive way to think about anything.

You should talk with Scrotie about epistemology, he loves that stuff :P
The Wheel of Nerfs turns, and builds come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the build that gave it birth comes again.
Last edited by Bars on Nov 14, 2016, 3:46:51 PM
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D3izhistory wrote:

Victory favors the prepared - Amat Curam

but in all seriousness, the world will be unlivable within 100-200 years tops (scientific fact and no i dont have the patience to argue with someone who doesnt believe in global warming at the moment)

With that said, people on earth will know within my lifetime that their children/grandchildren are doomed and when that has completely sunk in, that will be the hypothetical straw for those living in poverty by the 0.01%. I am just hoping i dont have to wait that long to see this revolution/end of days etc


You vastly underestimate the resourcefulness of nature.

Scientist's also proclaimed the reefs damaged by oil spills would take up to 28 years to recover completely.
Three years later they where doing honky dory again.

The struggle for life has never been beautiful. We will be no exception, but struggle we will.

Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
offtopic about uncertainty
I'll continue my post here instead of doing the usual and adding an edit to it because it might get a bit confusing otherwise:

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Bars wrote:
Everything is an assumption.

Apart from that, I've never said the fall of capitalism is imminent, nor that it's a given. Judging from the information I have available to me, I think it is likely to happen at some point. Also, from what I know, I think it should better happen or we're pretty much fucked. I have a nagging suspicion it might already be too late but I choose not to think about it too much because it's not a constructive way to think about anything.


...now imagine we had to talk like that about everything. A bit boring, isn't it? We work with degrees of uncertainty about everything. We constantly assume, generalize and round things up in our thoughts and in our words, because otherwise we wouldn't be able to do much. Most people find this uncertainty unnerving, so they choose to deceive themselves into certainty. It's called faith.

I've always had issues with faith. I try to use humor to keep my sanity instead. I even have a favorite quote about this particular issue: All generalizations are wrong, including this one.
The Wheel of Nerfs turns, and builds come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the build that gave it birth comes again.
Last edited by Bars on Nov 14, 2016, 3:48:54 PM
Thing that interests me is the "fact" that the universe has only been capable of supporting life as we know it for so long and it's possible it wont be able to in the future too. Like there is this time window where life anywhere is possible and after that nobody really knows for sure what will happen. I'm stressing the word fact because really we barely even understand how our own solar system works let alone the universe.
Here are the three key concepts I think people miss in advocating communism:

1. The integral unit of human decision-making is the individual. Although we can alter the choices put before a person, they will choose according to their own interest.

2. Infrastructure is the systematic alteration of options a group of people has, attempting to restructure their choices. Infrastructure can empower different and/or stronger choices (ex: the physical infrastructure of a highway system) or limit them (ex: the legal infrastructure of punishing murderers).

3. Infrastructure isn't free; it's subject to the "no free lunch" principle of economics. Laws require investigation and enforcement to have teeth, both of which require human work; highways require construction and maintenance; etc. Because of the shared nature of infrastructure, this leads to taxation, spending a portion of the total human capital available to the system. None of the above requires the existence of money to be true.

4. Therefore, the standard of judgement of an infrastructure is its ability to increase the efficiency of human capital such that the gain is greater than the cost, maximumizing the power of its society's human capital. In short, the best infrastructure is the most cost-effective one. The worst infrastructures are those which aim to limit choice without empowering it in some manner; these are costs without revenue.

--------

Given the above, I imagine some form of socialism - that is, "to each according to his contribution" - might be possible. However, Marxists trend to see this as the harbinger of communism - that is, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - which is an obviously impossible system, since the level of control required would create backbreaking taxation which could not possibly be sustained. The wisdom of anyone who believes communism follows socialism is in serious question.

Socialism also faces severe problems regarding the shared ownership of physical capital. This puts tremendous power in the hands of the representatives of government, who are themselves individuals and will make decisions based on their individual good. In this way, you wind up with essentially the same problem as capitalism: those who have amassed power over the physical capital of the system are likely to use their massive power to lean on government to corrupt it towards their own interests.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Nov 14, 2016, 10:21:57 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
Here are the three key concepts I think people miss in advocating communism:

1. The integral unit of human decision-making is the individual. Although we can alter the choices put before a person, they will choose according to their own interest.

2. Infrastructure is the systematic alteration of options a group of people has, attempting to restructure their choices. Infrastructure can empower different and/or stronger choices (ex: the physical infrastructure of a highway system) or limit them (ex: the legal infrastructure of punishing murderers).

3. Infrastructure isn't free; it's subject to the "no free lunch" principle of economics. Laws require investigation and enforcement to have teeth, both of which require human work; highways require construction and maintenance; etc. Because of the shared nature of infrastructure, this leads to taxation, spending a portion of the total human capital available to the system. None of the above requires the existence of money to be true.

4. Therefore, the standard of judgement of an infrastructure is its ability to increase the efficiency of human capital such that the gain is greater than the cost, maximumizing the power of its human capital. In short, the best infrastructure is the most cost-effective one. The worst infrastructures are those which aim to limit choice without empowering it in some manner; these are costs without revenue.

--------

Given the above, I imagine some form of socialism - that is, "to each according to his contribution" - might be possible. However, Marxists trend to see this as the harbinger of communism - that is, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" - which is an obviously impossible system, since the level of control required would create backbreaking taxation which could not possibly be sustained. The wisdom of anyone who believes communism follows socialism is in serious question.

Socialism also faces severe problems regarding the shared ownership of physical capital. This puts tremendous power in the hands of the representatives of government, who are themselves individuals and will make decisions based on their individual good. In this way, you wind up with essentially the same problem as capitalism: those who have amassed power over the physical capital of the system are likely to use their massive power to lean on government to corrupt it towards their own interests.


While valid points, this new world order that is coming won't be reliant on a left or right or someone/party that identifies themselves with an ideology... Change will come at the time where EVERYONE's values and the idea of morals are radically challenged, Will it end up being our most primal needs that these revolve around or something else... no idea but will be fun to find out

I look forward to the day when we all sink or swim based upon our choices, uncorrupted by laws, social etiquette, fear, vanity, greed or other cancerous evils that have plagued humanity until now
I got a fever and the only prescription, is more cowbell!
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D3izhistory wrote:
I look forward to the day when we all sink or swim based upon our choices, uncorrupted by laws, social etiquette, fear, vanity, greed or other cancerous evils that have plagued humanity until now
That won't happen. Without laws, there are no rights: no right to life, as the thug can kill you and live in your house; no right to liberty, as the kidnapper can enslave you, turning you into his property; no right to property, as the thief can steal from you and run away. There are no natural rights; we were not Endowed by our Creator with a damn thing.

In moderation, artifice is not our corruption, but our salvation.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Nov 14, 2016, 8:28:23 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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D3izhistory wrote:
I look forward to the day when we all sink or swim based upon our choices, uncorrupted by laws, social etiquette, fear, vanity, greed or other cancerous evils that have plagued humanity until now
That won't happen. Without laws, there are no rights: no right to life, as the thug can kill you and live in your house; no right to liberty, as the kidnapper can enslave you, turning you into his property; no right to property, as the thief can steal from you and run away. There are no natural rights; we were not Endowed by our Creator with a damn thing.

In moderation, artifice is not our corruption, but our salvation.


Your post has hints of a materialistic, american and religious belief (not saying this as a bad thing). But, Not much i can "endow" for your belief group sorry. My personal belief is that those sitting around a campfire praying when the end of times come.... will be the first to perish to the elements unfortunately
I got a fever and the only prescription, is more cowbell!
I was mocking the religious underpinnings of the Declaration of Independence. You didn't get the joke.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Nov 14, 2016, 10:20:22 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
I was mocking the religious underpinnings of the Declaration of Independence. You didn't get the joke.


i'm Canadian- that's my excuse for not getting it lol
I got a fever and the only prescription, is more cowbell!

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