My melee character does more damage using blade vortex, part 2

So I made a thread like this awhile ago and it was very entertaining. Most people made a ton of excuses for it (was using bladefall vs viper strike back then) but they were, for the most part, clueless peons making really obvious fanboy defenses for GGG's horrible balancing process.

This time there's very little debate to be had. It's unquestionably a more melee-focused passive tree and the build potentially does literally more dps using BV, WHILE BINOS IS STILL EQUIPPED (and no caster mods on the offhand shield, either).

Here are the relevant pics:
Reave:


Blade Vortex:


Passive tree:



Q and A section:
Q: But your tooltip is way higher for reave!
A: As we all know, tooltips are misleading. The tooltip for reave is accurate. However with what's shown in that picture BV will do (758+1137)/2 = 947.5 average damage per hit, which at 20 stacks is potentially 18950 damage per second. That's before critting, by the way, so with crit chance and crit multi calculated in:
18.72% (crit chance for bv) * 230% (crit multi for bv) = average multiplier of 1.43056, or 18950 * 1.43056 =
27109.112 dps for BV

Q: But you're using conc effect on BV and aoe gem on reave!
A: True, however I'm also using a quality reave and no quality on BV, as well as WIELDING A FUCKING BINOS KITCHEN KNIFE in that BV picture. And no caster mods on the rest of the gear either.

Q: But your weapon sucks!
A: Ok, here's the search for daggers on EHC: http://poe.trade/search/omaritumamonot
As you can see, there's only 20 daggers for sale that have more PDPS than bino's, and none of them have close to the amount of crit binos has. My reave crit multi is 344%, so it just about makes up for any pdps difference if not overshadows it. And some of those daggers, even without crit, are listed at for example 5 exalts. In most cases, since the crit is significantly lower than bino's, it would actually result in a net DPS loss.

Q: Stop giving GGG such a hard time!
A: No. They're the ones giving ME a hard time.

Out of curiosity (I agree that the balancing is off): Have you tried running around with it and is the clear speed higher than with Reave? Or are you too scared to try whacky shit on HC (which I can understand)?

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Char1983 wrote:

Out of curiosity (I agree that the balancing is off): Have you tried running around with it and is the clear speed higher than with Reave? Or are you too scared to try whacky shit on HC (which I can understand)?

Valid question.

I believe the clear speed would be faster with reave given the setup I have on, but I could easily equip some caster stuff I picked up off the floor and probably clear faster with BV. Or at least it'd be nearly the same until I got to a boss, at which point BV would definitely win. We all know which build clears faster when built to purpose, though.

I can't be assed to try because I'm too busy leveling my BV pathfinder ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The bigger issue for me is that my passive tree contains 199.8% increased dagger damage, 54% attack speed, 190% dagger crit and 114% dagger crit multi and still does more dps with a spell gem. And I cannot buy anything better than what I have in EHC in terms of melee damage output.

And reave is supposed to be one of the "good" melee gems, so there's that.

While i completely agree with your point, I think the setups should have the same gem setups. The attack speed bonus is pretty meh on reave as is the area bonus on bv. But one getting 59% more area dmg is a big difference.
I think ggg seemed to balance base spell dmg as pretty much the dmg of a mirrored one hander pdps weapon and presume we can all craft 400 pdps 1h if we really want to.

"

Fhark wrote:

While i completely agree with your point, I think the setups should have the same gem setups. The attack speed bonus is pretty meh on reave as is the area bonus on bv. But one getting 59% more area dmg is a big difference.
I think ggg seemed to balance base spell dmg as pretty much the dmg of a mirrored one hander pdps weapon and presume we can all craft 400 pdps 1h if we really want to.

It's 51% area damage with my gem. Take out the conc effect gem and replace it with anything, BV still does more dps (27k/2 = 13.5k, then add faster casting/crit chance/crit damage gem). I should have done the gems better but BV would still have more dps with any setup.

The bottom line here is that I'm using one of the "good" melee gems, using a melee passive tree, and melee gear, and blade vortex still does more dps with all that stuff.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Fhark wrote:

While i completely agree with your point, I think the setups should have the same gem setups. The attack speed bonus is pretty meh on reave as is the area bonus on bv. But one getting 59% more area dmg is a big difference.
I think ggg seemed to balance base spell dmg as pretty much the dmg of a mirrored one hander pdps weapon and presume we can all craft 400 pdps 1h if we really want to.

It's 51% area damage with my gem. Take out the conc effect gem and replace it with anything, BV still does more dps (27k/2 = 13.5k, then add faster casting/crit chance/crit damage gem). I should have done the gems better but BV would still have more dps with any setup.

The bottom line here is that I'm using one of the "good" melee gems, using a melee passive tree, and melee gear, and blade vortex still does more dps with all that stuff.

Blade Vortex's clear speed is usually not as good as melee. I played both and prefer to play melee over Blade Vortex. Blade Vortex's boss killing speed is almost unmatched though.

"

Starxsword wrote:

Blade Vortex's clear speed is usually not as good as melee. I played both and prefer to play melee over Blade Vortex. Blade Vortex's boss killing speed is almost unmatched though.

WUTFACE

Have you even PLAYED blade vortex pathfinder? I'm clearing at speeds many magnitudes greater than reave. And they both have clunkiness exclusive to those skills, but reave is probably the fastest melee vlearing I've experienced (haven't done EQ yet).

Honestly the only thing that has cleared faster than blade vortex (and probably still does) is vaal spark

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

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Starxsword wrote:

Blade Vortex's clear speed is usually not as good as melee. I played both and prefer to play melee over Blade Vortex. Blade Vortex's boss killing speed is almost unmatched though.

WUTFACE

Have you even PLAYED blade vortex pathfinder? I'm clearing at speeds many magnitudes greater than reave. And they both have clunkiness exclusive to those skills, but reave is probably the fastest melee vlearing I've experienced (haven't done EQ yet).

Honestly the only thing that has cleared faster than blade vortex (and probably still does) is vaal spark

No, I play whatever builds I feel like I want to do. The last time I played Blade Vortex was several leagues ago. Damage is really high, but clear speed is meh.

In HC Essence, my build is currently Necromancer SRS.
In Essence, my build is currently Cast on Crit wander.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Starxsword wrote:

Blade Vortex's clear speed is usually not as good as melee. I played both and prefer to play melee over Blade Vortex. Blade Vortex's boss killing speed is almost unmatched though.

WUTFACE

Have you even PLAYED blade vortex pathfinder? I'm clearing at speeds many magnitudes greater than reave. And they both have clunkiness exclusive to those skills, but reave is probably the fastest melee vlearing I've experienced (haven't done EQ yet).

Honestly the only thing that has cleared faster than blade vortex (and probably still does) is vaal spark

Flicker is faster. But yeah, if you can keep your reave stacks up there isn't much difference between reave and bv in terms of clear speed since reave becomes a screen write clear. You either run around casting bv every now and then or run around reaving a few times. Maybe your reave playstyle just sucks. That 15k base dps really looks underwhelming.

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Starxsword wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Fhark wrote:

While i completely agree with your point, I think the setups should have the same gem setups. The attack speed bonus is pretty meh on reave as is the area bonus on bv. But one getting 59% more area dmg is a big difference.
I think ggg seemed to balance base spell dmg as pretty much the dmg of a mirrored one hander pdps weapon and presume we can all craft 400 pdps 1h if we really want to.

It's 51% area damage with my gem. Take out the conc effect gem and replace it with anything, BV still does more dps (27k/2 = 13.5k, then add faster casting/crit chance/crit damage gem). I should have done the gems better but BV would still have more dps with any setup.

The bottom line here is that I'm using one of the "good" melee gems, using a melee passive tree, and melee gear, and blade vortex still does more dps with all that stuff.

Blade Vortex's clear speed is usually not as good as melee. I played both and prefer to play melee over Blade Vortex. Blade Vortex's boss killing speed is almost unmatched though.

BV clearspeed not that good? With your lvl 80 char and gear of 2-5 ex maybe. Or in HC where everyone has to be careful.



I seriously wonder why people spread untruthes here with only little overview. Let me tell you that BV has the best clearspeed on anything, no matter if bosses or maps, of everything, probably just inferior to very few other stupidly overpowered clearspeed builds like voltaxic spark.


I play with several maxed out BV chars frequently and each and everyone of them knows and admits that it is hopelessly op. When doing so I usually just run behind and don't even need to bother about killing anything cause it would be a useless approach.

And it is not only the clearspeed. It is the mods it can do at the speed. BV is just stupidly OP and your lvl 70-80 char experience in act 4 desert or low maps really is not of any value for the analysis.

The higher the level and gear, the higher the scaling and the more visible the differences.