So, in both of your opinions, GGG is squandering away dev time on MTX's and P2W features (on a secondary distributor, no less, not the main game) instead of fixing the games "core problems".
Because its not at all reasonable that GGG have given the core game to TenCent, and they have developed the f2p features and their auction house, much like garena back then, in adition to the chinese/russian UI.
Throw out a piece of information and leave it to the nerds to come up with the most ridiculous conspiracy theory and baseless fearmongering.
Jonathan described his responsibilities at GGG. One of them is working on the trade improvements. He's also the guy who worked on fixing desync. BUT, he explained when he worked on fixing desync years ago, he couldn't do it today. Why? Because he spends most of his time directing/explaining the game to other people who are tasked with the programming. Right now, he says he's working on the back end of the game when he isn't spending most of his time directing the other programmers. How many other programmers are there working on the back end? Just one. Jonathan and this other guy are the only ones working on the back end. What is the other doing right now? The China launch. https://youtu.be/Q_tBlZ-8xJo?t=7m10s
Says who?
I have seen that video, and i heard what Jonathan says. To paraphrase the thing you seemingly picked out "Over the years, compared to when GGG was a smaller team, my role has taken on a more administrative one and i am managing more people instead of coding."
I have no idea where you got the "just one other guy working on the back end" (which could still mean that its a guy in charge of a team) or that that automatically means that everyone else is working on the china launch. Or, that the game needs that many people actually working on the back-end right now.
If jonathan has to actively manage other devs in their questions about programming, i'd actually recon that means that every-freaking-one-else is actually working on the game, no? You also have to know what "back-end" means. Trade improvements for instance, not it.
So, no, it's not conspiracy theory fear mongering. Their back end guy is working on the China release, and the only other back end guy left at GGG, Jonathan, who is also working on trade, also had to manage all the other programmers and can't spend time on long-term projects like he used to (desync fix) - ie., the trade improvements.
Are you seriously suggesting that there are only two people working on the game right now?
Where do you think league features are coming from? Or how do you think they develop a5? Pull them out of their ass two weeks pre-release?
Just because they dont immediately release trade improvements or other QoL features, does not mean noone is working on them. (again, that is *not* the "back-end")
So yes. Unsubstantiated fearmongering and brewing up conspiracy theories, because you have no idea how game development works.
ps.: Its very unlikely that there are people at GGG actually working on the china launch, much more than just prepping the core game and learning in a few core devs from china. Much more likely that tencent has its own devs making adjustments, ie. the auction house and the revive button. They'd have to hire chinese speaking devs, make a chinese UI and then make features that are specifically for another distributor, while not using any of those features on their own realms. Thats the epitome of wasted development time.
So, in both of your opinions, GGG is squandering away dev time on MTX's and P2W features (on a secondary distributor, no less, not the main game) instead of fixing the games "core problems".
Because its not at all reasonable that GGG have given the core game to TenCent, and they have developed the f2p features and their auction house, much like garena back then, in adition to the chinese/russian UI.
Throw out a piece of information and leave it to the nerds to come up with the most ridiculous conspiracy theory and baseless fearmongering.
Jonathan described his responsibilities at GGG. One of them is working on the trade improvements. He's also the guy who worked on fixing desync. BUT, he explained when he worked on fixing desync years ago, he couldn't do it today. Why? Because he spends most of his time directing/explaining the game to other people who are tasked with the programming. Right now, he says he's working on the back end of the game when he isn't spending most of his time directing the other programmers. How many other programmers are there working on the back end? Just one. Jonathan and this other guy are the only ones working on the back end. What is the other doing right now? The China launch. https://youtu.be/Q_tBlZ-8xJo?t=7m10s
Says who?
I have seen that video, and i heard what Jonathan says. To paraphrase the thing you seemingly picked out "Over the years, compared to when GGG was a smaller team, my role has taken on a more administrative one and i am managing more people instead of coding."
I have no idea where you got the "just one other guy working on the back end" (which could still mean that its a guy in charge of a team) or that that automatically means that everyone else is working on the china launch. Or, that the game needs that many people actually working on the back-end right now.
If jonathan has to actively manage other devs in their questions about programming, i'd actually recon that means that every-freaking-one-else is actually working on the game, no? You also have to know what "back-end" means. Trade improvements for instance, not it.
So, no, it's not conspiracy theory fear mongering. Their back end guy is working on the China release, and the only other back end guy left at GGG, Jonathan, who is also working on trade, also had to manage all the other programmers and can't spend time on long-term projects like he used to (desync fix) - ie., the trade improvements.
Are you seriously suggesting that there are only two people working on the game right now?
Where do you think league features are coming from? Or how do you think they develop a5? Pull them out of their ass two weeks pre-release?
Just because they dont immediately release trade improvements or other QoL features, does not mean noone is working on them. (again, that is *not* the "back-end")
So yes. Unsubstantiated fearmongering and brewing up conspiracy theories, because you have no idea how game development works.
ps.: Its very unlikely that there are people at GGG actually working on the china launch, much more than just prepping the core game and learning in a few core devs from china. Much more likely that tencent has its own devs making adjustments, ie. the auction house and the revive button. They'd have to hire chinese speaking devs, make a chinese UI and then make features that are specifically for another distributor, while not using any of those features on their own realms. Thats the epitome of wasted development time.
Where did I ever say there are only 2 guys working on the game? There are only two guys working on the BACKEND - one is working on the china release instead of PoE, the other, Jonathan, is too busy to work on anything, including trade.
You said Tencent is working on the china client, not GGG, but that's not true, Jonathan said their only other back end programmer is working on the china client. And my point is that once again, we have to wait for long waited improvements to the game. This time, the reason is for the China release.
I provided hard evidence, from GGG, that they have at least one main programmer working on the China client INSTEAD OF THE CORE GAME. You are GUESSING that they don't have anyone else working on it.
Provide evidence to back up that claim.
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give moar Power Creep Pls
Last edited by Druga1757 on Oct 20, 2016, 10:09:11 AM
Where did I ever say there are only 2 guys working on the game? There are only two guys working on the BACKEND - one is working on the china release instead of PoE, the other, Jonathan, is too busy to work on anything, including trade.
You said Tencent is working on the china client, not GGG, but that's not true, Jonathan said their only other back end programmer is working on the china client. And my point is that once again, we have to wait for long waited improvements to the game. This time, the reason is for the China release.
I provided hard evidence, from GGG, that they have at least one main programmer working on the China client INSTEAD OF THE CORE GAME. You are GUESSING that they don't have anyone else working on it.
Provide evidence to back up that claim.
You realize that the back-end is all the database management, and cross instance systems like chat? What exactly does GGG need to work on there for game improvements?
So when the other back-end programmer is prepping up the core game to work on another server farm, instead of what i'd recon is otherwise mostly maintenance on our realm, i am not all that suprised.
What you are substantiating is that those features (that have nothing to do with back-end) that are on the china-client are actually made by the devs here at GGG instead of tencent.
And that those things are taking up a massive workload instead of improving the game.
So yes, you proved that there is one guy working on the china client and the rest is wild speculation. Completely illogical wild speculation.
Because:
a. GGG would have to hire long-term chinese speaking programmers and designers, but then there would be no reason to license the game to tencent, they'd open up a subsidiary there.
b. Why would they talk about maybe borrowing apropriate pieces of the chinese AH-code, if they'd written it themselves, they would have written it in a way that would have fit our realms as well. Noone voluntarily makes twice the work for themselves.
Spoiler
On the GGG realm, there is instant, accurate item searching via the public stash API. On the Chinese realm, there is not. You can search by item type (for example, rings) and you see pages of hundreds of arbitrary rings from the market. You can then make offers on those. It's harder to find the exact chase item you're looking for. (For this reason, it's not accurate to call it an Auction House)
We don't plan to clone the Chinese system directly onto our realm, but could potentially borrow appropriate pieces of it. We are still discussing this and its effect on our economy. We are acutely aware of the danger of implementing accurate search + buyouts.
More information in the near future
Where did I ever say there are only 2 guys working on the game? There are only two guys working on the BACKEND - one is working on the china release instead of PoE, the other, Jonathan, is too busy to work on anything, including trade.
You said Tencent is working on the china client, not GGG, but that's not true, Jonathan said their only other back end programmer is working on the china client. And my point is that once again, we have to wait for long waited improvements to the game. This time, the reason is for the China release.
I provided hard evidence, from GGG, that they have at least one main programmer working on the China client INSTEAD OF THE CORE GAME. You are GUESSING that they don't have anyone else working on it.
Provide evidence to back up that claim.
You realize that the back-end is all the database management, and cross instance systems like chat? What exactly does GGG need to work on there for game improvements?
So when the other back-end programmer is prepping up the core game to work on another server farm, instead of what i'd recon is otherwise mostly maintenance on our realm, i am not all that suprised.
What you are substantiating is that those features (that have nothing to do with back-end) that are on the china-client are actually made by the devs here at GGG instead of tencent.
And that those things are taking up a massive workload instead of improving the game.
So yes, you proved that there is one guy working on the china client and the rest is wild speculation. Completely illogical wild speculation.
Because:
a. GGG would have to hire long-term chinese speaking programmers and designers, but then there would be no reason to license the game to tencent, they'd open up a subsidiary there.
b. Why would they talk about maybe borrowing apropriate pieces of the chinese AH-code, if they'd written it themselves, they would have written it in a way that would have fit our realms as well. Noone voluntarily makes twice the work for themselves.
Spoiler
On the GGG realm, there is instant, accurate item searching via the public stash API. On the Chinese realm, there is not. You can search by item type (for example, rings) and you see pages of hundreds of arbitrary rings from the market. You can then make offers on those. It's harder to find the exact chase item you're looking for. (For this reason, it's not accurate to call it an Auction House)
We don't plan to clone the Chinese system directly onto our realm, but could potentially borrow appropriate pieces of it. We are still discussing this and its effect on our economy. We are acutely aware of the danger of implementing accurate search + buyouts.
More information in the near future
What do you think the trade improvements need to work? The backend. I'm assuming MTX stash sorting, does, too. Both of those aren't moving along if the back end programmer is working on the china client.
Please, explain to me how GGG will implement trade improvements and mtx stash sorting without needing a programmer to implement it on the backend?
Please, explain to me how GGG will implement trade improvements and mtx stash sorting without needing a programmer to implement it on the backend?
Who says they cant?
All we know is that "the other guy working on back-end stuff is totally swamped with work for the china client." and that Jonathan himself is working on the next round of trade improvements.
He neither said that was "back-end" work, nor did he say he is working on the sortable MTX tab, or that it was in fact something he is working on, just that it was coming.
If GGG has a stable and working back-end enviroment, ideally there shouldnt be a ton of work involved with it when implementing new things. Games usually dont get rewritten from the ground up when new features get introduced, as long as you have a solid base, the work on it should get less and less. (which is kinda obvious, with only two people working on it out of their huge number of employees)
Back-end is like the operating system, you dont need to do huge changes on it whenever you install a new app, unless you do something that your system is not laid out to do, implementing new features do not require changes to it.
I assume this has nothing to do with GGG? Have they just licensed the game to a Chinese provider who decided to go p2w?
This is actually very likely.
Chinese law actually mandates - as in it's required - that if Grinding Gears wants to operate the game in the Chinese market, it has to do so by licensing the game to a Chinese company that will make operational decisions for it in that market. Non-Chinese companies aren't allowed to operate directly in China, at least not the last time I wound up talking about this with someone. Obviously GGG gets some of the profits, but they're not really allowed to make command decisions for their game in China. I'm not sure, but I believe they may not even be allowed to pull the license if they discover that their Chinese 'partner' company is doing dumb shit like this.
Also: the Chinese market is rife with crap like this. Over there, this is just business as usual, a completely expected sort of transaction that a percentage of Chinese players would be angered wasn't available. They don't see anything wrong with a free-death coin. The Eastern MMO/online game marketplace is a very, very different place than the American marketplace.
Be incredibly thankful you're here, and not there.
"Our license agreement with Tencent allows them to implement pay2win if they want to. We didn't include a clause against this, because we can then rationalise it to ourselves that it's not *our* fault. But really, at the end of the day, we care more about those sweet, sweet profits than about standing up for our values in the Chinese market."
Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756
Last edited by dudiobugtron on Oct 20, 2016, 4:02:54 PM
"Our license agreement with Tencent allows them to implement pay2win if they want to. We didn't include a clause against this, because we can then rationalise it to ourselves that it's not *our* fault. But really, at the end of the day, we care more about those sweet, sweet profits than about standing up for our values in the Chinese market."
Nothing wrong with that, it is only natural for them to make profit off of it. Besides, what values? The chinese love these kinds of features and happily pay for stuff like that coin. Do you know how many exp boosts for Paragon Leveling they sell in their version of D3?
I also like how every hypocrite cries out loudly while it clearly affects no one around here. Lmao. If I were in GGG's shoes, I would do the same and monetize the shit out of the chinese realm. Supply and demand, they do nothing wrong there.
Last edited by Ulsarek on Oct 20, 2016, 4:13:17 PM
"Our license agreement with Tencent allows them to implement pay2win if they want to. We didn't include a clause against this, because we can then rationalise it to ourselves that it's not *our* fault. But really, at the end of the day, we care more about those sweet, sweet profits than about standing up for our values in the Chinese market."
I also like how every hypocrite cries out loudly while it clearly affects no one around here. Lmao. If I were in GGG's shoes, I would do the same and monetize the shit out of the chinese realm. Supply and demand, they do nothing wrong there.
You're saying he's a hypocrite for pointing out the hypocrisy of GGG's business decision for China POE? I think you have the definition of "hypocrite" backwards or possibly inside-out.
In general I see POE and freemium business models to be on polar opposite ends of the "going to heaven" and "going to hell" scale of video game money-making morality (excepting scam boxes). While it may not affect us on non-china realm, the idea that there's a soul leeching freemium version of poe now available makes me feel icky.
"Our license agreement with Tencent allows them to implement pay2win if they want to. We didn't include a clause against this, because we can then rationalise it to ourselves that it's not *our* fault. But really, at the end of the day, we care more about those sweet, sweet profits than about standing up for our values in the Chinese market."
Nothing wrong with that, it is only natural for them to make profit off of it. Besides, what values? The chinese love these kinds of features and happily pay for stuff like that coin. Do you know how many exp boosts for Paragon Leveling they sell in their version of D3?
I also like how every hypocrite cries out loudly while it clearly affects no one around here. Lmao. If I were in GGG's shoes, I would do the same and monetize the shit out of the chinese realm. Supply and demand, they do nothing wrong there.
You are not wrong at all, licensees should be able do do their stuff at their own markets.
We all know, China gaming differs from other areas.
What I care 'bout, as said here already, is the point when it's going to a merge like the garena servers. Noone can say that this will never really happen in future.
"better to simply go balls deep full retard if you gonna go retard." -Boem-
