GGG team are clueless about their own Game?

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dudiobugtron wrote:
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SunL4D2 wrote:
Again not sure where you from got it but I clearly remember Chris saying two things :
1. Tough fight should have great rewards.
2. "I didn't checked out this Sword stats, because I trust people who work on it"

They start talking about that around 37:39. He pretty much says what you say he did. The people interviewing him already knew that he doesn't deal with balance of specific items, and they said so in the podcast.

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He never admitted that this sword is dumb, too strong or anything. Never ever.

I agree. I said that.
Just like he never said it was 'game-breaking'. You said that.

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Later he said in general context that good unique items like Reach makes people use rare weapons / craft less

He says that around 36 minutes in.

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It's up to you to provide stamps and here is why. Most people don't have issues with points in OP, therefore according to common sense widely accepted thing that come first should be trusted more than new claim.

Are people agreeing with you because they watched the podcast, or did they just trust your claims about it?
And anyway - how can I give you a timestamp for something he didn't say? I listened to the podcast, and I didn't hear him say those things you said he did. So I posted that. You seem to care a lot about my opinion - thanks! But for me to check more thoroughly, I need to know where you think he was saying those things, then I can listen to it and see if you're right. I'm happy to be proved wrong if he did say those things.

For example, around 10:10, Chris starts talking about how it's OK for some skills to be worse than others, and he says around 10:32: "I don't believe that every skill in the game necessarily needs to be good. It's OK for there to be some bad choices."

In your OP, you said "Chris thinks that most skills being useless is actually good and way to go." As you can see, your claim is different from the bit I quoted. ("It's OK for some skills to be bad", vs "it's OK for most skills to be useless" - surely you can see there is a significant difference here!)
Was the bit I quoted the part you were thinking of, and you just remembered it wrong?
Or was there another part where he did say it was OK for most skills to be useless?

That's some big post you got there.

Wow you are such a huge nitpicker and party crasher :o

You are talking about minor details that doesn't change general picture at all. It's just careful more polite wording from his side we all clearly see through.

It's same as if I would say to you "Get the fuck out of my House!" or "Please leave my House". Both of this statements tell interlocutor to leave someone alone but with different wording.

Same for "Chris is ok with some skills being worse than others" and "Chris is ok with most of skills being useless". About "some" and "most". We all know what he meant in this case, unless he also doesn't have a clue about which skills are actually used.

I don't remember him saying that it's a problem and they will completely overhaul skills making a lot more skills viable, so "Way to go part" is true as well. They "see too much hassle in buffing some skills cuz of balance shenanigans or whatever", despite what they did to Blade Vortex making more than 20% of player play Blade Vortex...

>>Just like he never said it was 'game-breaking'. You said that.<<
Should be wrong wording by my side sorry. I meant he doesn't see anything wrong with this items despite how broken they are in reality.

So basically you just nitpick about minor details too much. Meh.
Last edited by SunL4D2 on Sep 21, 2016, 9:39:49 AM
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SunL4D2 wrote:

Same for "Chris is ok with some skills being worse than others" and "Chris is ok with most of skills being useless". About "some" and "most". We all know what he meant in this case, unless he also doesn't have a clue about which skills are actually used.

No you don't.
You also don't understand the meaning of useless in this context it seems.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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Fruz wrote:
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SunL4D2 wrote:

Same for "Chris is ok with some skills being worse than others" and "Chris is ok with most of skills being useless". About "some" and "most". We all know what he meant in this case, unless he also doesn't have a clue about which skills are actually used.

No you don't.
You also don't understand the meaning of useless in this context it seems.


The thing is Chris even gave a number. He said 15. That is a very small number, so lets try to find 15 skills that are useful (he said builds, but we won't count two different builds with the same skill.

Earthquake, Righteous Fire, Bladefall, Blade Vortex, Ethereal Knives, Vortex, Tornado Shot, Barrage, Blast Rain, Lacerate, Reave, Arc, Frost Nova, Sunder, Ground Slam, Ancestral Warchief, Flame Totem, Shockwave Totem... oh wait I might have made a mistake, that are more than 15, and I'm not even done. All of those skills are usable and plenty more are as well.

Do all of those have a similar powerlevel? No, not really and that is what Chris said. I won't argue that Arc is weaker than Bladefall. But that doesn't mean it is useless. You might even be able to clear every content in the game with Arc. I assume all of the above skills might be able to do so. Will some of them need better gear or have a harder time? Definitly, but that is what he said.

Chance to Flee is useless and maybe Glacial Hammer but I assume 6% will stay as a meme and if that was there goal they succeeded. "Oh if we buff Glacial Hammer by 6% nobody will look at all the other changes... because wtf 6% more damage for Glacial Hammer?".

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When I heard the comments about life it made me wonder what mechanics and builds I've missed. I don't think you can just take it for granted your mastery of the game mechanics is such that you know more than this designer, but I do know where you're coming from. The ability for ES to allow me to play more carelessly does seem stronger. I agree with you there.


Well designers are all very specific. They are specialists in their very own department. And again most of what Chris said was in the past. It was before a BV LL (and CI does the same) Pathfinder killed the shaper by basically just standing there. Yes the podcast was later, but Chris talked in the past about what other developers said and admitted that he isn't entirely up to date.

And honestly Devs might also look at such things from a more isolated perspective. Is CI better than Life? So at this point you look at what both things offer. CI is vulnerable to stun, can't use life flasks and can't leech life. This makes it pretty bad compared to life. However for all of those things you have workarounds. So a Dev might actually ask himself not if CI is too strong, which he might say no, he will look at those work arounds to CI downsides. Is it too easy to avoid Stun as CI? Is the additional benefit of more utility flasks making up for the lack of Life Flasks? Is Ghost Reaver and Instant Leech too easy or too strong, do they need downsides?
Arc is actually among very few great Elemental Spells (others being Flameblast, Firestorm, Vortex, Storm Call, Ice Storm and Righteous Fire). While nobody uses remaining 90% of skills like Lightning Tendrils, Flame Surge or Ice Spear (Cold Spells in general) even while levelling. And GGG is fine with this. :|
Last edited by SunL4D2 on Sep 21, 2016, 11:28:20 AM
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Fruz wrote:
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SunL4D2 wrote:

Same for "Chris is ok with some skills being worse than others" and "Chris is ok with most of skills being useless". About "some" and "most". We all know what he meant in this case, unless he also doesn't have a clue about which skills are actually used.

No you don't.
You also don't understand the meaning of useless in this context it seems.


I will reiterate that in the context of the current balance of skills, a large percentage of them are useless in any competitive way whatsoever.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
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Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it.
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Legatus1982 wrote:

I will reiterate that in the context of the current balance of skills, a large percentage of them are useless in any competitive way whatsoever.

This will always be the case, always.

competitive means 0.01% of the population basically, it means the cream of the cream of the builds, and the balance to reach so equivalences at this point is so difficult that you like always have couple of skills that dominates the "competitive" scene.

Is the game being design around competitive players only ?
No
=> A skill is not useless because it's not competitive.

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SunL4D2 wrote:
Arc is actually among very few great Elemental Spells (others being Flameblast, Firestorm, Vortex, Storm Call, Ice Storm and Righteous Fire). While nobody uses remaining 90% of skills like Lightning Tendrils, Flame Surge or Ice Spear (Cold Spells in general) even while levelling. And GGG is fine with this. :|

Fyi, you missed ice nova, ball lightning, incinerate, cold snap, glacial cascade, and others.

Is the main objective of this game to be competitive ?
-> that's a PvE game, if it wasn't, we would probably have many many less skills and passives an options, for the sake of balance.

SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Fruz, >>> ice nova, ball lightning, incinerate, cold snap, glacial cascade, and others. <<<

They suck compared to skills that I mentioned, maybe except of Glacial Cascade.

Nobody argues that some skills will always be better than others but they are not supposed to be miles ahead of others.

There is a lot of skills in PoE that nobody ever uses. Nobody use them because there is no reason to use them when other skills are much stronger. And in comparision to you I see something wrong with it.

>>> Is the main objective of this game to be competitive ?
-> that's a PvE game, if it wasn't, we would probably have many many less skills and passives an options, for the sake of balance. <<<

What are you talking about? I just don't want such desparity between skills and that's it.
Last edited by SunL4D2 on Sep 21, 2016, 12:16:16 PM
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Fruz wrote:


Is the game being design around competitive players only ?
No
=> A skill is not useless because it's not competitive.


Since when is poe not a competitive game? We have ladders, leagues, races, season race rewards, all of these are competitive incentives.

You're living in a complete fantasy world man and that world isn't even poe. Idk what it is.
my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
-----
Bug Fixes:
People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it.
Last edited by Legatus1982 on Sep 21, 2016, 12:17:05 PM
I never said that poe was not a competitive game, big misinterpretation there.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

They suck compared to skills that I mentioned, maybe except of Glacial Cascade.

Or maybe you don't know how to build around them.

And I forgot discharge too ( 2.4.0 discharge ), there are probably others.

It's being miles ahead, what is miles ahead are things like EQ / BV / Bladefall, couple of skills way over the top because of different interactions or scaling in the game.
And if EQ isn't way over the top, then let's say that most other melees skills are way too low, because melees do have a problem.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

What are you talking about? I just don't want such desparity between skills and that's it.

I honestly think that you are expecting too much.
There are disparity, and some skills are in a very bad state, and some other and too ridiculously good ( couple of ), but I don't think that there's as much disparity as you think there is.

If you can clear endgame content pretty comfortably with one spell ( without a crazy investment, usually ), it means that it's not in such a bad state for example, imho.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Was watching Prison Break for a few days. Any news on the matter?

...

Fruz, you are too optimistic. There is a lot of skills that nobody ever uses from Ligthning Tendrils to Rejuvenation Totem, from Dominating Blow to Converstion Trap. Vast majority of skills in PoE are like that. And things like Blade Vortex are just so much better than remaining somewhat good skills that there is no reason to play clunky, inconvinient, harder to setup and less powerful altogether options.

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