"GGG considers it impossible for melee to reach t15 "

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Which means: you think it should OHKO players with 100 less Life than you. Right?

This is why you can't design for an OHKO-free environment. One man's "oh shit" moment is another's resurrect screen.

What's important to me is: as far as OHKOs go, there should be an inverse correlation between 1. your defensive investment and 2. how quick your reactions need to be to avoid telegraphed lethal damage.

Nahhh scrotie I'm pretty sure you and everyone else reading these forums knows well that's not actually what he means.

But GGG can't tune damage that way for everybody. Players have varying amounts of Life and defenses. So for some it's going to be an OHKO, for others that scary 90% hit.

The design question I guess is where to put that OHKO line.

I think big telegraphs like that pre-maps should be tuned for solo racing. If your race tree is all offense (not that weird since it's a race), then that stuff OHKOs you with "expected" gear. If you make significant defensive investments in a race, then more like the 90% scare than death. That feels fair to players who make that defensive investment AND get hit; they get a second chance.

However, once mapping starts, I think this expectation for gear and defensive investment needs to gradually climb as tier increases, at least in terms of avoiding nothing at all. One Shaper telegraph should be flat-out untankable.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

But GGG can't tune damage that way for everybody. Players have varying amounts of Life and defenses. So for some it's going to be an OHKO, for others that scary 90% hit.

The design question I guess is where to put that OHKO line.

I think big telegraphs like that pre-maps should be tuned for solo racing. If your race tree is all offense (not that weird since it's a race), then that stuff OHKOs you with "expected" gear. If you make significant defensive investments in a race, then more like the 90% scare than death. That feels fair to players who make that defensive investment AND get hit; they get a second chance.

However, once mapping starts, I think this expectation for gear and defensive investment needs to gradually climb as tier increases, at least in terms of avoiding nothing at all. One Shaper telegraph should be flat-out untankable.

They can, however, lessen the RNG. A mob doesn't need to do anything between 1000 to 10000 damage, 3k-5k would also work. Crits and lightning damage are particularly prone for these shenegians. It might also be that some map mods are pretty overtuned in combination with certain mob suffixes.

That being said, at least you can reroll maps. There is still some things outside of your control that need some tweaking, though like reflect. It could be done differently. Like volatile. It could be done differently. Like exploding boss corpses. It could be done differently.

Obviously, I completely agree with OHKO on telegraphed moves.

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Even still, I think the fight would be richer if Touch of God left players with double-digit HP, rather than killing them outright.

You could do that, but that would require those skills to be based against your HP and ES and basically ignore defenses. Because if they don't you run into a lot of issues. If we say that those skills are bad, a 4k HP ranger might survive barely, while a Marauder heavily invested in HP would just stand there ignoring those attacks.

Currently there is no way in the game to make an attack that doesn't kill a char with 4k HP even remotely dangerous to one with 8k HP or even one with 15k ES. So it might be possible and better for the game if those skills won't kill, but they have to be meaningful, which is hard to do without ignoring defenses, which again is something if we look at traps that people don't like.

So we basically end up trying to do the impossible. And while just outright killing them creates issues, it is actually a lot fairer, because it makes those attacks meaningful. And while a fight shouldn't be full of death traps, having to pay attention during a boss fight is a good thing.

Again in a different game not having onehits might be feasable, although there are not many games that remove them entirely. And PoE has another issues most other games never had to face. The random map system. Map mods can change the amount of damage a player takes by tremendous amounts. So having fair telegraphing and making things kill you in the first place is much better than just handing a certain amount of damage and don't really care about what happens in maps.

Because think about it, how could a skill threaten a player with basically no damage enhancing mapmods, but still not kill him if you have 140% increased crit multi, 25% increased damage, perma vulnerability and 100% damage added as one of the elements? That's just not doable. But attacks that are telegraphed don't care about that, because you should never get hit by them in the first place, of course even they have issues here, if you get the onslaugt mod or attack and castspeed for bosses, but even than most of them are manageable (not all, Tunneltrap can be painful).

If PoE would be a different game, you wouldn't need Oneshots, but for the game we currently have those mechanics though troublesome at times are a lot less troublesome than most alternatives. Because if a player should survive all those hits, you need to ensure that he requires some recovery time before being able to take the next hit, which right now is not given. If those hits won't kill the player he will just stand there and take hit after hit. Just look at the Berserker, he would gladly leech all those lost HP back with 100% Life Leech after taking a big hit. So unless you kill him with a single hit you will never kill him. The main reason why the Berserker is not incredible broken is because he has a hard time using ES and is far away from Vaal Pact.

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- OHKOs render armor and evasion useless as a primary form of guaranteeing survivability, limiting build diversity

Well they render all defenses useless (except those that make you immune). Actually Evasion chars are the only ones that even have some form of defense (except DD, they die, because its secondary damage). They actually encourage build diversity. A Telegraphed hit is dodgeable for all builds. Having damage that is not dodgeable even if it doesn't oneshot you requires you to sustain it. Which is easy for some builds, not so much for others. Exspecially Evasion builds are essentially forced to get leech because they have terrible access to anything else. A highly telegraphed fight like the second phase of Izaro allows Evasion based builds to utilize their high mobility. If you turn the Malachai fight into a non-telegraphed style, meaning that you take most of the damage instead of being almost entirely able to avoid it, it will get a lot harder for exspecially evasion based builds. Their best defense is not getting hit, Evasion and Dodge are just backups to allow them to cheat death if they do get hit.

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OHKOs punish exploration and experimentation, especially untelegraphed OHKOs.

Well but that's entirely of the discussion. We only discussed telegraphed attacks. A blue Vaal Colossus shouldn't just oneshot you. He can, some people might have noticed it, but he shouldn't. You could argue that even his regular melee attacks are so slow, that they are kinda telegraphed, but that is not what people would assume encountering them.

From my own experience when I die to lag it is rarely to those telegraphed attacks. I spend so little time dodging those it is very unlikely that during this time lag happens. When I die to lags it is usually during regular not very oneshotty gameplay. My last two such deaths happened at Dominus, during the first 3 guys (the later Courtyard bosses) and the other was in Terrace, again not really oneshotting. I just lagged and was unable to do anything for a short time. I might not remember it but I can't recall a situation where lag prevented me from dodging a telegraphed attack.

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I think big telegraphs like that pre-maps should be tuned for solo racing. If your race tree is all offense (not that weird since it's a race), then that stuff OHKOs you with "expected" gear.

Which is kinda how it is now. Normal and Cruel nobody will oneshot you if properly geared. Even Merciless Oversoul has issues oneshotting people. Since he got toned down a lot since his "better days". I'm not sure about Dominus, but I'm fairly certain you can survive that too. Telegraphed Oneshots only happen in the lab and some of Izaros skills can be devastating, but again some armor and they are surviveable and with the high MS of Eva chars they are easy to dodge.

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They can, however, lessen the RNG. A mob doesn't need to do anything between 1000 to 10000 damage, 3k-5k would also work. Crits and lightning damage are particularly prone for these shenegians.

They don't. The only dangerous lightning attacks are Pietys Storms and Atziris Storm Call. And they deal pretty reliable damage. The only ones dealing unreliable damage are likely exiles, because they are essentially other Players and have fairly similar rules (Grandmasters propably as well). But regular enemies don't have as wide damage gaps as players can have. Maybe with exception of Arc mages, but they aren't dangerous in the first place. From Recent experiences I would even say that Molten Shell from Goatman deals pretty much the same damage everytime.

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HoloPaladin wrote:

i dont care anything about you.
Just telling everyones here you expirience in playng melee. Im noticed that its 0. Its writed right in you profile and every one can check it.

riiiiiight

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Legatus1982 wrote:

[...]

First of all, you getting edited because of the content of your post and not me says quite a bit about the situation.
The second element here would be that everybody has been trying to make you understand the same basic principles for more than 10 pages and it still hasn't worked.
And you are not even realizing it.

Let me put right in front of your face what I said ( so that everyone can notice how you cannot read maybe, idk lol ) :

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Fruz wrote:

Bosses do not deal 13k dmg just because you are in melee range.
Apart from the OP's cases, which is why it is a problem, but apart from that, bosses don't do this, basically.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "just" ?
Hint : it's very important in understanding the meaning of the statement here.

"In this case we have an individual who doesn't understand that there are mechanics whereby a ranged character does not take damage and melee does"
WOW, Now trying to make me say things that I never said that you just pulled out of your magic hat, nice straw man.
I dare you to find even one place on this forum where I said such a thing.
Have fun.

And there are some other pathetic attempt at antagonizing again in there, good job, and you are calling "discussion" after that ?
/rofl
Discussion is obviously not what you are looking for.

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evouga wrote:

Bursts of up to 4k HP are fine -- this is a reasonable amount of damage to expect any reasonable build to tank. Bursts of more than this are strategically and tactically uninteresting:

- good game design rewards consistently good decision, and punishes consistently poor decisions. OHKOs punish momentary inattentiveness by otherwise good players, lag spikes, and hardware or software hiccups, none of which are skill-testing.
- OHKOs lead to an Energy-Shield-dominated meta as players try to gain an ever-greater buffer against absurdly large hits, limiting build diversity
- OHKOs render armor and evasion useless as a primary form of guaranteeing survivability, limiting build diversity
- OHKOs punish exploration and experimentation, especially untelegraphed OHKOs. Players are incentivized to pore over online boss videos in order to survive surprise OHKO moves, instead of learning themselves how to beat the boss experimentally. An ideal tough boss fight has the player spending a minute or two fruitlessly attacking and parrying the boss's attacks, before realizing that the fight is hopeless and teleporting away.

Having to use tactics against a boss fight instead of facetanking it is including good decisions imho.
- If you would take those double 4k hit on your life based build, software hiccups and spikes of lags could just killed you the same, there has been many pages on why this is not relevant to the OHKO argument, and why GGG cannot just create an online game where people have 0 chance to die to connection issues.
- It goes in both ways I think there, people to reach a crazy high buffer so GGG is increasing the damage somewhat according to that .... and that sucks imho.
- Well they are supposed to
- Everybody agrees that un-telegraphed OHKO are not a good thing I think. Now, bosses have those telegraphed attacks in normal where they are not OHKO, so that you can learn the patterns.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I think big telegraphs like that pre-maps should be tuned for solo racing. If your race tree is all offense (not that weird since it's a race), then that stuff OHKOs you with "expected" gear. If you make significant defensive investments in a race, then more like the 90% scare than death. That feels fair to players who make that defensive investment AND get hit; they get a second chance.

But unfortunately, that's where ES kicks in and render those attempts to balancing sorta pointless.

Blave Vortex = melee

Are u ******** kidding me?

What is this thread about Fruz? Your perceived idea of the topic, or the actual discussion about ohko on MELEE ONLY?

Your usage and unnecessary emphasizing of the word "just" is totally meaningless. The boss COULD HAVE done nothing at all and stood there doing nothing, but that's not how the fucking game works, is it?

IF that had been a ranged bow or caster he would still be alive right now. End of fucking discussion.

As to the line where ohko is acceptable, 13k is WELL past that point. No life build can even approach 13k.

looool
I will happily quote myself again :

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Fruz wrote:

Let me put right in front of your face what I said ( so that everyone can notice how you cannot read maybe, idk lol ) :

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Fruz wrote:

Bosses do not deal 13k dmg just because you are in melee range.
Apart from the OP's cases, which is why it is a problem, but apart from that, bosses don't do this, basically.

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Fruz wrote:

Let me put right in front of your face what I said ( so that everyone can notice how you cannot read maybe, idk lol ) :

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Fruz wrote:

Bosses do not deal 13k dmg just because you are in melee range.
Apart from the OP's cases, which is why it is a problem, but apart from that, bosses don't do this, basically.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "just" ?

Are you really even asking?

How trusting you are of your fellow man that you expected anyone (except me and a small handful) to understand. Dead serious, when I first saw it I thought "hmm, Fruz laid some bait."

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Astarte911 wrote:

Well deserved. Mindless running in and facetanking without any thoughts.

Nothing more to say :P

That's what he told about: true melee is fckd up here.
Nice you were able to think before post.