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Boem wrote:

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Bars wrote:

and we all know how it goes from there.

I'm perfectly fine with dictatorship if i'm the dictator though.

First thing i would do is cut the work-week to 3.5 days, doubling labor and infrastructure potential.

Religion seeks truth and truth is like the stars. Radiant and just for an instance, ever-fading after.
What exist's nowadays is no where near religion in my opinion.

hehe

'Egalitarians adjust to aristocracies just fine, as long as they get to be the aristocrats.'
Louis McMaster Bujold

About religion, not really. It appeared as an attempt to find truth - we couldn't explain the world around us so we made up these beings which were causing natural phenomena. This is the first stage, polytheistic religions - they were the precursor and replacement of modern science, the tale people were telling themselves about the world. We typically don't deal well with uncertainty and the unknown, it scares us. We want to have a nice, well-ordered picture of the world in our heads and religion was the answer to this need to create an illusion of understanding. We would much rather lie to ourselves than accept some unpleasant truths.

However, religion evolved and adapted right along with society. At some point the ruling classes started discovering the most powerful tool for control: propaganda. So they started to reshape and alter the tale people were telling themselves about the world. The ruler became God's representative, or even reincarnation, on Earth. His rule was, conveniently, absolute and unquestionable. Monotheism appeared: one god in heaven, one king on earth. Who's the Devil, evil incarnate? The one who rebelled against the system, of course. Religion evolved from an attempt to explain the inexplicable to a powerful tool for social control. The reason it's still powerful even today, despite the overwhelming available data which clearly indicates it's bullshit, is because people easily believe lies they wish were true and you'll always get more supporters telling a sugared lie rather than an unpleasant truth. The modern religion sells a nice structured picture of the universe where everything can be explained with God, the universe is a fundamentally just place where good will always triumph and evil will be punished and you'll have a great time in paradise (if you're a good boy) even if your current situation is shitty.

This is much more palatable to most people than the realization we're all John Snows struggling through the unknown.




p.s. however, it's not all doom and gloom and we might know at least something:

Well your taking it from a general/historical point of view, so there is little for me to disagree with.

Though i tend to tackle subjects like this from a personal point, most of the religious text's and followings i read/know of are basically first forms of science if not utilized for the warping of society.

And since they stem from periods where the foundations of science where not yet represented as strongly, they generally allow a lot of space for chaos to occupy their theories.

So they acknowledge truth, but not infinite truth.

On that front, if people are honest with themselves, little has changed. We like to convince ourselves we made a lot of progress with science/religion but a lot of fundamentals are still up the air.

Not to mention, inquiry provokes questions and questions will keep surfacing for as long as you inquire, such is the nature of the human mind. Very much a dog biting his own tail.

From my perspective, devoted religion seeks to stop chasing the tail.



We are still very much clueless, weak, fragile. And rather then owning up to that nature we rather devote our energy to the illusion of the opposite.

One of the most used arguments i hear to counter hope/religion nowadays is that it is a tool for weak people.
Immediately attempting to raise the person using that argument above that status, a foolish notion demonstrating the fragility of his nature. Growth is pretty much a pipe-dream for people ignoring their basis.

If any of this makes sense to you, cheers. It's early and i'm just taking my first coffee in so it's very much hog-wash atm.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

On that front, if people are honest with themselves, little has changed. We like to convince ourselves we made a lot of progress with science/religion but a lot of fundamentals are still up the air.

Not to mention, inquiry provokes questions and questions will keep surfacing for as long as you inquire, such is the nature of the human mind. Very much a dog biting his own tail.

From my perspective, devoted religion seeks to stop chasing the tail.

Quote time again:

“Cutangle: While I'm still confused and uncertain, it's on a much higher plane, d'you see, and at least I know I'm bewildered about the really fundamental and important facts of the universe.

Treatle: I hadn't looked at it like that, but you're absolutely right. He's really pushed back the boundaries of ignorance.

They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things.”

T. Pratchett

I agree about religion when you put it like that but the problem is, you're putting it from the standpoint of a thinking person with a flexible mind. Religion in its institutionalized, monotheistic version is a powerful and often abused tool in the hands of the unscrupulous.


I'm rather fond of Tao and Zen, though. But they aren't really religions, at least not as most people define 'religion', myself included.

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Bars wrote:

Religion evolved from an attempt to explain the inexplicable to a powerful tool for social control. The reason it's still powerful even today, despite the overwhelming available data which clearly indicates it's bullshit, is because people easily believe lies they wish were true and you'll always get more supporters telling a sugared lie rather than an unpleasant truth. The modern religion sells a nice structured picture of the universe where everything can be explained with God, the universe is a fundamentally just place where good will always triumph and evil will be punished and you'll have a great time in paradise (if you're a good boy) even if your current situation is shitty.

You're underestimating the power of religion.

The exact reason why religion is such a powerful tool for social control is the reason it was first developed: it explains the world. Explanations are a powerful resource.

Do not delude yourself into thinking that "science" is somehow immune. Think of all the bullshit biased "scientific" studies you've ever heard of. These are the same thing on a strategic level: attempting to insert convenient falsehoods into the way people understand their world.

More insidious is: consider what truths might be focused on, emphasized, drilled into the collective will... while other truths which moderate those views are swept under the rug.

Inability to form one's own explanations is a lot like the inability for a nation to produce its own oil. It inevitably leads to dependence on others for explanations in the same way nations become dependent on foreign oil. This is why independent verification of others' claims - independent knowledge - is so important to independence of action.

The problem is that most people are straight-up incapable of forming their own explanations of complicated phenomenon, and those who can find independent verification is often a time-consuming process which we do not have time for. We put our trust in others, giving them power over us. Sometimes this power is used responsibly, sometimes not.

In conclusion, I do not recommend someone become a disciple of "science" in the sense of believing what you hear scientists have discovered. Instead, I recommend critical thinking and being a man of science in the sense of practicing the scientific method oneself, conducting one's own experiments to independently verify claims one has heard.

Iv spent considerable time over my life trying to understand this world. The way i see it; civility /morality is a technology. Its deep in our genetics as an evolved social animal. And it's good thing it's there. Together we are stronger than fighting among ourselves.

But is morality real? It all depends on how one defines 'real'. Sugar is real by all accounts. But as we get deep into the structure of sugar, we see it is merely a specific arrangement of fundamental particles of matter stably bound by energy. So is it just the matter and energy that is 'real'? Or is there a sense of 'real'ness in patterns such as the configuration of the sugar molecule? If patterns are 'real', then what about more abstract patterns that only exist in the minds of higher life forms?
But even deeper, we need to examine the concept of 'real'. It is merely an abstraction with a name. Just because the concept was created and used by intelligent beings does not mean there is real 'truth' to it. I personally assert that the definition of truth is: an abstraction which can be mapped onto our observable reality. The interconnectedness of our universe is so great though that any partial truth is incomplete. Many of our words and concepts are not only vastly incomplete, but erroneous in that they do NOT correctly map onto our reality. So each and every word we use should be analyzed to deduce how close it is to the truth and in what ways it is in error.

As for religion; our society requires organization and cooperation. In the pre industrial world, the vast number of uneducated needed to be taught ... trained to behave in a manner more conducive to the advancement and peaceful cooperation within our society. And religion was the tool used to mold minds to this end ( and others) for millennia. Im sure many people would not accept being told how to behave unless it came from some absolute authority. And there exists no greater authority than the invisible man in the sky with total power who sees all and created everything. And a promise of eternal damnation for sinners who defied the will of God.
Is that such a bad thing? Is a lie more terrible than manipulating people to behave? Or is the assumption of it being a lie too presumptuous? Is it possible there is a god? I cannot rule it out with 100% certainty, yet i have no evidence of His existence. And without evidence nor a means to produce evidence, it is not a subject which one should waste our time on.
The people need shepherds. I would hope in the future though, they treat others as equals rather than lessers... teaching the truth in all its complexity rather than hand waving it all under His rug.

I believe in the maximization of the future freedom of action for all individuals capable of mutual cooperation. My reasons for coming to this belief are based on my moral values; life, empowerment, peace, and freedom to all whom dont threaten these principles.
Why do i have these values? Why have any motivation or goals? Why do i keep on living? Really there is no satisfying deep answer to this. It may be the result of brain chemistry and subliminally learned culture. To question our survival instinct just seems like a really bad idea.

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Bars wrote:

I'm rather fond of Tao and Zen, though. But they aren't really religions, at least not as most people define 'religion', myself included.

Maybe i would have done better to utilize the therm "school of thought" which is applicable to both common religion doctrines and more esoteric forms of thought.

I surmised quite early that every school of thought wants to educate certain fundamentals of the human nature only to be abused later on by people indulging themselves in greed and power.
As somebody interested in the nature of humans, the only course of action is to negate cause and effect and reach the fundamentals of a teaching on your own instead of being bewildered by the abuse allowed because of those teachings.

Peace,

-Boem-

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI


Was extremely fun to watch... Love debates.

YOU ALL MUST WATCH IT IF YOU HAVENT

I would also recommend the movie Contact