GGG needs to change their view of the endgame and stop the nerf madness

I_NO's post of Blame COC really got me thinking just what the hell is GGG doing to us in the endgame.

Let's see:
Dual totem sparkers were all the rage a couple years ago... GGG nerfed it.
Flameblast was a FotM skill and OP... GGG nerfed it.
Cyclone was OP not too long ago... GGG nerfed it.
Lately, VR and RoTC bows too OP... GGG nerfed them.
Many others I can't remember.

So now BV and COC will get whacked down by the GGG nerf hammer. No surprise.

If you look at what GGG does it's plain to see that they are doing as much as they can to stop us from creating builds that can take us all the way to level 100. Also plainly obvious is GGGs incessant nerfing of exp. in the 90s levels to block/stop our efforts to reach level 100.

Almost everything about GGG with skills and weapons involves nerfing any skill or weapon that gets used by the streamers and becomes a FotM build. GGGs public view on this is that they want "build diversity". To some extent that is desirable in that we saw back in 2012 how out of balance things could/did get with the whirlwind leaping barbarian in original D3. So GGG is trying to prevent any one specific build combo from making the endgame journey to level 100 happen too fast. Apparently GGG has it in their minds that once we advance a build to level 100 that we will view this as "I won, game over" and quit. Maybe some players will do that. But how many, many more players are there that have just thrown in the towel and quit because the carrot we chase (a level 100 build) keeps getting moved farther and farther away from us? There have been many streamers that have quit over this and the most recent one I can recall is Zenocide. Unfortunately, going forward I see nothing new from GGG to change this.

One idea I proposed was for GGG to ease up on the amount of map grinding required to get to level 100 and then have a grand goal of a super prize for getting to level 100 in all 7 classes. In addition a level 100 build needs to be made a big deal by having a retired build ladder that is ranked by hours played to reach level 100 but also be a place to showcase that build for all to see and learn from to get ideas on how to improve our own builds. To that end the retired build ladder would need to be a snapshot of the build at the moment level 100 was reached with all gear, the passive tree including jewels used, and flasks. This would all be made public so anyone could look at a build and try to copy it or more likely get insight into other players build strategy and get ideas on how to improve our own builds.

Sadly for us GGG does not embrace and encourage us to play and grind a build to level 100. All they apparently see is that a few no-sleepers (24/7 players) that get to level 100 < 1 month and think of what next can be done to stop them from their race to 100. That thinking severely and unduly punishes the 99.9% PoE loyalists that make no illusion of ever grinding a build to level 100 but at least want to feel that we have a shot at it if we wanted to. GGG has completely taken away that dream from us with the latest level 95+ exp. nerf. As another player calculated/estimated it is something in the 250 to 300 maps that he would need to run to advance his level 96 build to 97. That is just way out of the realm of playing PoE for 99% of us and I can see why so many once avid players have called it quits.

The other major problem with PoE that I don't see a solution to is that there is an ever widening gap between the 99% that struggle to get to level 90 and the 1% (or less) that cruise their build well into the upper 90s and get to 100 in a challenge league and then proceed to post to GGG that "PoE is too easy" and "please make PoE harder". This ever widening gap just makes it all the most frustrating for the 99% seeing this:

"

Players at very high levels (95 and higher) now incur an additional experience penalty equal to 1 - ( 1 / ( 1 + 0.1 * ( level - 94 ) ) ). For example, a level 96 player receives 16.67% less experience than before.

For GGG trying to make PoE a "one size fits all" arpg is all but impossible and this problem of lesser skilled and new players being left out and the super expert top elite players that understand how to min/max a build and can make near optimal passive tree choices all the time cruising to the top will only worsen. I'm all for learning and challenging game play (I certainly don't want a Whimseyshire walk in the park arpg and I'll never ever have that concern here) but each content release pushes level 100 farther away just to satisfy these few elite racers who are now in the upper 90s in Essence League making the problem worse. More power to these elites (I don't specifically hate them) but by act 5 if GGG can't code a way to improve the endgame for both camps this will signal the end for many of the 99% who can't or don't want to eat/sleep PoE 24/7.

What's the point of all this map grinding if GGG is continually against us? There has to be a better way and GGG needs to take a different view of the endgame and make it "fun to play" very soon or risk a major player base collapse.

It seems like you need to stop focusing on level 100. That isn't the goal of the game. None of the maps or endgame bosses require you to reach that level to defeat them, and the highest level there's an achievement or challenge for is level 90. There is no reward for level 100.

You say that PoE is targeted at the hardcore streamers and people that play 24/7, but that's not true at all. The problem is that you're focusing on the one goal that is made for that group, reaching level 100, when there are tons of other goals you can strive for that are more realistic for a larger group players, like completing all 40 challenges or defeating the Shaper.

I have a ton of fun with the game and I know I'll never get any of my characters to level 100. I'm reaching for other goals, and these aren't goals that I had to invent myself to keep myself entertained, they're goals that GGG has specifically built into the game for me.

I personally did not want Coc nerfed to oblivion but the game is probably healthier without it.

Level 95 is good enough I just wished GGG did not nerf exp in every possible way including reducing mob density, raising mob health AND reducing exp gain. The exp penalty should start at 97 or 98.

apathy did this

Same here. By level 92 at most I need a change. And the good side of the nerf hammer is keeping us looking for different builds. I would hate playing the same build always, but that is just me maybe.
I honestly have never tried to get to 100, probably could but why grind? Not fun for me.

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kernco wrote:

It seems like you need to stop focusing on level 100. That isn't the goal of the game. None of the maps or endgame bosses require you to reach that level to defeat them, and the highest level there's an achievement or challenge for is level 90. There is no reward for level 100.

You say that PoE is targeted at the hardcore streamers and people that play 24/7, but that's not true at all. The problem is that you're focusing on the one goal that is made for that group, reaching level 100, when there are tons of other goals you can strive for that are more realistic for a larger group players, like completing all 40 challenges or defeating the Shaper.

I have a ton of fun with the game and I know I'll never get any of my characters to level 100. I'm reaching for other goals, and these aren't goals that I had to invent myself to keep myself entertained, they're goals that GGG has specifically built into the game for me.

Then why even have a level 100? Why not make the cap 90?

Answer: To keep you grinding. GGG does not, has not, and most likely will never have a proper endgame, so they have done everything in their power to make sure 99% of players will never find any sort of conclusion to their journey. Uber lab? Walled off behind RNG. Shaper? Walled off behind RNG. Level 100? Prohibitively difficult. I'm sorry, but people like endings, it's in our nature to want to reach that point where we can look at what we've done and be proud. When the game only ends when the player finally gets so frustrated they quit, it leaves a terrible impression and a feeling that their time was just wasted.

With PoE's potential for build diversity, the appeal to keep playing should come in the ability to make new and different builds. But if the hilarious number of BV Pathfinders hasn't tipped you off, that is clearly not happening because people want to reach an end and will do anything they can to achieve it. Player goals and GGG's wishes aren't aligning at all.

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AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

Answer: To keep you grinding. GGG does not, has not, and most likely will never have a proper endgame, so they have done everything in their power to make sure 99% of players will never find any sort of conclusion to their journey. Uber lab? Walled off behind RNG. Shaper? Walled off behind RNG. Level 100? Prohibitively difficult. I'm sorry, but people like endings, it's in our nature to want to reach that point where we can look at what we've done and be proud. When the game only ends when the player finally gets so frustrated they quit, it leaves a terrible impression and a feeling that their time was just wasted.

The point you are talking about, does exist in PoE: it is defeating Merciless Malachai. It is also a bit GGG's fault by having the ending credits removed after finishing a difficulty.

Maps, Atziri and uber labyrinth are additional content that fit the lore of Wraeclast but they do not belong to the main story arc.

GGG doesn't need to change their view. You do.

You don't speak for the community. Very few people care about getting to 100. The "end" is beating Mal in merc. Everything after that is optional and fun. If you want to get to 100 you can. If I want to run maps to find gear to sell I can do that. If someone else wants to run Atziri they can do that. GGG is providing options for endgame and that is that.

Believe it or not but people play this game for different reasons and you don't speak for all of us.

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AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

Then why even have a level 100? Why not make the cap 90?

Answer: To keep you grinding. GGG does not, has not, and most likely will never have a proper endgame,

Please tell what proper endgame is.

Every activity gets boring after some time, this is when you should take a break from it.

There are no and never will be everlasting games.


So many smart lads in forums. Let's just imagine they drop max level to 90. How will the game benefit from it?

The 100 thing I don't think ggg are going to change their mind on.

On the other hand, sustaining red maps seems less painful with the atlas and hopefully ggg won't decide it's too accessible because I'm really enjoying trying all of the content which wouldn't be possible for me without reasonable high tier drops.

Regarding nerfs I would urge ggg to keep in mind there is typically a big gulf between the op builds and regular builds. Balancing top end content specifically for very op builds hurts diversity and is really a big reason for the fotm/nerf cycle.