Atlas mechanics / map drops: Is GGG lying to us? Deliberately not telling the truth?
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OK, I will write this post under the premise that GGG is NOT lying to us. What they wrote about the Atlas is the following:
" Furthermore, they explained in the Manifesto post: " Three things stand out: 1) Supposedly, there has not been a general change in the number of maps that drop, so this is strictly a buff to map drops. 2) Supposedly, it should now be possible to more easily sustain high-tier maps. 3) The wording is incredibly imprecise. While GGG usually is very precise in their wording, here they are not. About the last point: What happens if a map is upgraded to a tier that cannot drop? And what does "cannot drop" even mean? If I kill a normal monster in a T12 map, that then would drop a T12, which gets upgraded to T13 - can it drop that map? I mean, following the wording, yes, a T13 map "is able to drop in the area you're currently playing" - just not from that monster. I suspect that the drop does not happen, to be honest, even though then the wording is technically incorrect. So the question is: What happens if e.g. a T11 boss is rolled to drop a T13, which is then upgraded to T14 through the Atlas mechanics? It cannot drop. There are three options: a) The upgrade does not happen, a T13 drops. b) The drop is re-rolled until a possible drop is found. c) The drop is lost (failed drop). So obviously, b) and c) are not very nice. I somewhat suspect that b) is not the answer, because then you could go into an endless cycle if a white mob in a T1 map is trying to drop any map whatsoever if you have 100+% Atlas bonus. I've been interested in map drops for a while, and have been modeling them (if you have trouble understanding what comes next, please read that post there): https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1576006 When I first read the announcement of the Atlas bonus, I was stunned, because I was sure that has a huge impact. However, I don't see a big improvement in map sustainability with currently 102% Atlas bonus on Standard. The relevant maps are unlocked, so no drops are lost through that. So what is going on? Let us first look at a histogram of what long-term mapping looks like before 2.4 (I am ignoring T16s here, because I did not want to re-write the model, but the general conclusions get only better when you include T16s):  I've tuned the parameters such that you can sustain T10, and do a lot of higher-tier mapping. I know one could push for sustaining T10s, but let's look at a more casual mapper here (like me). As we can see, T10s are sustainable, and about 50% of the time is spent in T12+ maps. Nice. So let us look at what happens if the option a) is done, assuming 100% Atlas bonus (all maps get upgraded by one tier, I currently have 102%):  Ooops. Did I say it was a massive upgrade? It is. You just start running T15s exclusively. That is because on average, a T15 map would drop a T14 or T15, which in this case is the same - both drop as T15 (or T16, which as I said I ignore). Not sure if that is really the case, but this would definitely let you sustain T14s very easily. This is not what we see, so this is probably not the case. Let us look at option b), i.e. the map is re-rolled:  Still a very decent upgrade, from sustaining T10s you go to sustaining T12s. With the same way of rolling maps. Damn good, if you ask me. Last option: c) - the map is lost.  The Atlas bonus actually becomes a massive malus. Not quite surprisingly, cause a lot of map drops are simply lost. So, I guess the answer must be either a) Map drops get capped - but map drops in general got nerfed significantly. This kind of is opposed to what GGG is saying. So not very likely (would also suck pretty badly because it would make mapping even more random and streaky). or b) The map gets re-rolled - which is an improvement, but not as big an improvement as GGG makes it seem to be. I really hate that GGG is so unclear about how this works. They are kind of hanging up a carrot, but they are not explaining it properly. I asked in the mechanical questions thread already, but did not get an answer yet. The real problem I have with this option: Imagine you are running a T13. The boss rolls a T15 drop. Then, the map gets upgraded to a T16 through Atlas. Which is not possible so it is re-rolled. So instead of an Abyss map, you see a Mud Geyser map (what else?). The "bonus" is actually a malus in this case. Fear not, though: Mud Geyser is no longer T3. Thoughts are welcome. Remove Horticrafting station storage limit. Last bumped on Nov 5, 2016, 7:44:17 AM
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Excellent post. I, too, would really like some answers to this. Without having done a lot of red maps yet (been busy chasing the new maps to unlock) my instinct is that maps are indeed lost, e.g. option c). It just feels like it. Whenever I run T9-11 maps it seems nothing drops (rares w/ pack size, vaaled and so on), even though there is definite potential on the Atlas. I do get quite a few lower tier maps though, hence your graph for option c looks legit.
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It's pretty shitty and discourging so yeah I'd like some answers too.
Dys an sohm
Rohs an kyn Sahl djahs afah Mah morn narr |
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Post this in the mechanics stickie.
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" I take this to mean that if its a white mob, it drops up to a +0 map, and no higher, so if the map was already a +0 no change, but say it drops a -2 tier map then it can upgrade to a tier of the same level. If a boss in a t16 drops it can still only drop maximum of tier 16 so unless it drops less than a t16 map no upgrade chance is even possible. its not too hard to code a bunch of if else statements to handle the special cases where 99% of the time if just upgrades. S L O W E R Last edited by ampdecay on Sep 9, 2016, 8:26:15 PM
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There's a simple test you can do that you mentioned.
Go into T1 maps with your 102% atlas bonus and kill lots of white mobs. If you get no drops from white mobs over many maps, option c) is most likely. If you create an infinite loop when the map would drop and the server dies, it's option b). If you get a tier 1 drop, it's option a). |
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Maps don´t drop, it´s a myth...
The endgame this season is pretty much running t6-8 maps and hoping I will at least get one of those before I am down to T1-3 maps again. The challenge is not even there, the closest 2 maps I have even been to dying or feeling like this might be dangerous was Piety with 3 extra projectiles, min res, temp chains, mob skills chain, no life regen and increased boss aoe. The other one was Courtyard with pretty much the same mods. And then it´s only on Piety my life even moved enough for me to notice. I would run lab but for some reason I can´t find the trials in maps with 50 maps unlocked and well over 200 runs since I have done them all several times. Now I am back down again to doing t7 maps... I can add that I have alched every single map except for 2 in the over 200 maps I have ran so far. 50 maps unlocked on atlas. I used chisel and vaal orb on all maps t10 and up. I love PoE and I think the endgame is, or at least can be awesome. I just wish that bad rng that you can´t influence at all prevents you from playing the game unless you buy all your maps on poe.trade and then go farm A4/Merciless for some currency to buy another map and repeat. Playing the endgame without falling asleep would be awesome! Last edited by Delzeed on Sep 9, 2016, 9:24:32 PM
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I want a GGG answer to this. There are a LOT of people noticing a REDUCED map drop rate, and getting "stuck" at much earlier tiers.
It is ODD, because these complaints are a clear majority, and yet they aren't unanimous. Moreover, it's interesting that this was once billed as a QUANTITY bonus, and is instead a QUALITY bonus. As long term players know, IIQ>IIR, by quite a lot. I'm not the only person playing POE that is getting suspicious. This was to be a buff, but it feels like a nerf. Combined with the fact that it and Essences were ALL that were new in this..."Expansion"....People are getting upset. This NEEDS a Development Manifesto. This can't just be left like this. This is the worst expansion, patch, update, whatever, in any game I've ever played. It's also, somehow, been massively riddled with insane bugs. Remember Ziggy's L1 Fire Boots doing insane damage, because they forgot to make sure ALL the Essences ALL upgraded the level requirement? That's not even hard to test. Take a ton of L1 gear. Use every essence, of every tier, on every piece of gear it can apply to. It takes a while...But when you've done it, you'll know that it was functioning. Yet somehow, a bug that should have been clear as day....Got in. I left D3 because of a massively obvious bug like this. I do NOT want to have to go find ANOTHER ARPG to support. - Sheepster |
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Going from your graphs and playing in standard running nothing but T9 and higher...I notice my map drop pattern is very similar to option c.
"The launch day went quite well with just a few small hotfixes to address minor problems."
Heist League - GGG |
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All I know for sure is that I'm level 85, AND DOWN TO TIER 4 MAPS.
Something is horribly broken. |
