How To Fix Scion EV Wheel

Are you sure about the opness of having flat evasion, Boem? I looked up a QotF Dreamfeathers build in the ranger forum:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1087616

He has 238% increased evasion in the tree for level 100 I think. If the scion wheel had flat 2000 evasion, that would be 6760 additional evasion rating. Which comes out to 15% increased attack damage (hardly seems like a big boost) from dreamfeathers and 15% movement speed from QotF (maybe a lot but when you already have 89% not so OP I would think it broke the game). If he had to take the 5 other nodes in the wheel to get that flat evasion, which 5 nodes does he give up? I think on balance, the opportunity cost probably evens things out.

As far as flat armour goes, there's a reason most people just get a nominal amount and a granite flask and call it a day. Because it's too expensive and hard to stack enough armour to make it worth the investment. If you have nodes that make it easier to get armour, more people would choose armour builds I think.

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Fruz wrote:

I do not remember actual wheels of life / ES / EV like this, but it has been a while I have to say.

Fruz they were definitely there in 2013. You made me curious about this so I went on Youtube and tried to find passive tree videos from before 2013. This is what I found:


July 2012: https://youtu.be/FvZ2gZVPWNU?t=1m50s

This is from over 4 years ago. This is a trailer from Carl revealing the "new" passive tree at that time. You can see the EV wheel surrounding the center portrait.

You can also see the life wheel to the left.

ES wheel on top as well. I'm sure the values on the life and ES nodes have changed, but the fundamental imbalance of having Life vs. ES vs. EV wheel was already cemented in 2012.


Then I went further back still and came across something very interesting:


Sept 2011: https://youtu.be/fVKiLhDiZKM?t=8m22s

Here in this vid I see the passive tree did not have class starting points. Everyone started from the same center position whether you were Witch/Ranger etc. There were no keystones either.

When the guy started scrolling to down the right I was very surprised to see the Evasion wheel (linked). This thing was in the game in 2011. FIVE years ago!

To some people this is not a big deal, but this is telling me something important:

The EV wheel was never introduced by GGG as a new part of the tree. It is one of the oldest legacy clusters on the passive tree from when the game was still being developed. Somehow it got moved closer to the center when the classes were given different starting points.

Most likely because GGG couldn't figure out anything to be the 3rd wheel, and just saw an easy way out with the legacy EV wheel already on the tree.

It's clear that there is a fundamental imbalance between the 3 wheels. I just fail to understand how GGG has done nothing. Either too inept to recognize this, or too lazy to fix it, ok fine - but you can't be inept / lazy for 4+ years.

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Fruz wrote:

You say that EV has diminishing returns, but the more %EV you have, the more every single point becomes significant, so it's not completely true.
Armour works the same way, still stacking a ton of armour can be very beneficial.

People use diminishing returns to mean different things but what I meant is that for each "% Increased EV Rating" node you take - it increases your EV % chance in absolute terms by significantly less and less.

Yes it's the same for AR as you said - so why should the AR side have a life wheel instead of an AR wheel?

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mark1030 wrote:

Are you sure about the opness of having flat evasion, Boem? I looked up a QotF Dreamfeathers build in the ranger forum:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1087616

He has 238% increased evasion in the tree for level 100 I think. If the scion wheel had flat 2000 evasion, that would be 6760 additional evasion rating. Which comes out to 15% increased attack damage (hardly seems like a big boost) from dreamfeathers and 15% movement speed from QotF (maybe a lot but when you already have 89% not so OP I would think it broke the game). If he had to take the 5 other nodes in the wheel to get that flat evasion, which 5 nodes does he give up. I think on balance, the opportunity cost probably evens things out.

As far as flat armour goes, there's a reason most people just get a nominal amount and a granite flask and call it a day. Because it's too expensive and hard to stack enough armour to make it worth the investment. If you have nodes that make it easier to get armour, more people would choose armour builds I think.

And then you use a stibnite rolled with 100% increased evasion for a 200% flask evasion boost and fancy stuff like that :p.

It might be fine though, but my gut tells me otherwise.

Usually i make judgement based on my instincts since i don't do math.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Ceryneian wrote:

[..]

Ahh right the wheels were there, they were just not a way to travel through the center since they were not connecting both sides, my bad.

I only started in open beta, so I only knew with starting point per class.

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Ceryneian wrote:

People use diminishing returns to mean different things but what I meant is that for each "% Increased EV Rating" node you take - it increases your EV % chance in absolute terms by significantly less and less.

Yes it's the same for AR as you said - so why should the AR side have a life wheel instead of an AR wheel?

Because they created the wheels according to the three stats imho.
Str gives you life ( and some phys dmg )
Int gives you ES ( and should be some mana, there is some spell dmg instead )
Dext gives you EV ( and some accuracy )

But I agree, should be armour instead.

And if there were not those diminishing returns, it would just be too strong, as the last points have more effect than the previous ones.

Ok if we want to mirror the attribute requirements directly it would be:

Str wheel = flat life
Int wheel = % inc. ES
Dex wheel = % inc. EV

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Ceryneian wrote:

Ok if we want to mirror the attribute requirements directly it would be:

Str wheel = flat life
Int wheel = % inc. ES
Dex wheel = % inc. EV

Basically, yes.

But armour would still make more sense imho ^^.

I guess it's too late to edit my post above with an observation so I'll say it here. In my post I linked a build I grabbed from the class forums that used two items that have direct power boosts from evasion. In even this finished build that tries to get as much evasion as possible, the guide skips most of the scion life wheel, only getting the 3 nodes connecting tree branches. If a build that focuses on super high evasion doesn't even get those wheel nodes, they must really be worthless.

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mark1030 wrote:

I guess it's too late to edit my post above with an observation so I'll say it here. In my post I linked a build I grabbed from the class forums that used two items that have direct power boosts from evasion. In even this finished build that tries to get as much evasion as possible, the guide skips most of the scion life wheel, only getting the 3 nodes connecting tree branches. If a build that focuses on super high evasion doesn't even get those wheel nodes, they must really be worthless.

Not really, it has to do with point efficiency and in this particular case most likely Templars life/WeD/aoe efficiency.

The cluster is extremely good in point efficiency if you "just want life", but if your looking for more stats that can't easily be replaced by another part of the passive tree it can prove inefficient.
(in tempada's build this is the case)

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : just checked the tree itself. It's clearly an overall efficiency issue and simply the requirement to go both shadow/templar to get the most out of it.

Though i immediately found an upgrade to the current tree while looking over it :), so it can still be more efficient.

Edit: said the wrong thing and started a debate on something that needed no debate

edit : misunderstanding.

Peace,

-Boem-