"Never pay-to-win" Dishonest Marketing by GGG?

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Korvay wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

I don't think it's misleading because the amount of p2w in this game is miniscule.

This. The p2w in this game is more like, "pay for convenience" more than anything. And compared to most other f2p games, we should REALLY consider ourselves lucky.

I think honest feedback is important to the developers. I think the game is far better when it avoids being a ghost town and the game welcomes large numbers of players of differing skill and experience. It makes for a very rich and exciting in-game world. If new players are turned off by deceptive advertising or being at an in-game disadvantage to existing paying players - even if it is not a large disadvantage - then those new players may not stay and that would be very bad for the game.

So while we are lucky to have such a great game - and we are - we shouldn't be afraid to provide feedback that is negative because ultimately that would improve the game a lot more than just blindly supporting every development and marketing decision made by GGG regardless of the ramifications to the game that so many of us love.

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Jaille wrote:

That's because people either don't know the real meaning of p2w or they twist its definition to make it fit their narrative.

I think the best definition of pay-to-win is what Old Chris Wilson said when first marketing the game. Old Chris Wilson defined "pay-to-win" as "microtransaction" that provides an "advantage" for one player over another. "Microtransactions" should "completely divorced" from any "game play boost" as this would be "pay-to-win". The reason such a "pay-to-win" system is a problem is that the positive feelings of players are "substantially reduced" if other players can "buy advantage" to have the convenience to obtain currency for "less effort" and the overall "integrity of the game" is diminished:

We don’t want to sell anything that affects the game economy or provides a competitive advantage for one player over another. We try to completely divorce our microtransactions from the game balance. Selling items that affect a player’s stats, or can be traded, or provide some type of gameplay boost are examples of things that we feel would be pay-to-win.

We’ve designed Path of Exile as the game that we want to play, and we don’t want to play a game where players can buy advantage. In an Action RPG, it’s very important that players can only acquire levels and items as a direct result of their hard work so that the integrity of the game is kept intact. Players play for the feeling of finding and having an amazing item, and that feeling is substantially reduced if other players can get it for less effort.

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FelicityFlowers wrote:

I think honest feedback is important to the developers. I think the game is far better when it avoids being a ghost town and the game welcomes large numbers of players of differing skill and experience. It makes for a very rich and exciting in-game world. If new players are turned off by deceptive advertising or being at an in-game disadvantage to existing paying players - even if it is not a large disadvantage - then those new players may not stay and that would be very bad for the game.

Honest feedback, yes. But I think a lot of players are blowing things out of proportion. As far as gameplay advantages go, selling items from public stash tabs is pretty much the smallest one I can imagine. For it to provide any advantage at all, several other things must happen. You must reach a high enough level to be able to find items that are interesting to other players. You must be lucky enough to find an item with good stats. You must be experienced enough to recognize it as such. You must have a sense of the market to price it correctly. And finally you must use the currency you get from trading to craft or buy better equipment for your character.

The deceptiveness argument goes the other way too. If a prospective player comes to the forums and sees all the threads about how this game is pay-to-win, they may be turned off and not try to game at all. For me, pay-to-win means that paying real money will instantly make my character more powerful, and stash tabs don't do that.

I really think the commonly held belief that "trading is necessary" is to blame for this argument. Players who don't trade at all, or find little use in it, tend to be on the side of tabs not being an issue. They don't define "win" as being able to work in a virtual shop. Other players see being a shopkeeper as the ultimate "win" and to them the stash tabs come out as a necessity.

Too many different ideas as to what "win" means for this argument to be meaningful.

If stash tabs weren't a thing, would the same people be posting the same outrage about selling character slots? "Character slots are p2w because they give an unfair advantage over people who have to make alternate accounts if they want to mule their stuff". Does that seem silly to anybody else? It's pretty much the same thing though.

p2w stashtabs are p2w
i dont get how people think they arent, they mustve never cared about "the trade game"

having better gear = gameplay advantage... having better gear is like one of the major goals of this game isnt it? its even in the company's name "grinding gear"

TIME advantage is, the greatest advantage possible in life.. time is the ultimate resource.
p2w tabs provide a time advantage


- argument pwned .. now let it rest, or make them give every1 a free prem tab


ive HAD trade threads on poe forums, ive used trade chat ALOT

but id neeevvverrr get people wanting to buy things, i bought 1 p2w tab and people are buying my stuff like crazy... guess it gives you a priority??

seriously, ive had tons of seller threads, and i never sold much at all.. maybe like 3 or 4 items EVER
sold some spamming the trade chat before..

but now with the p2w tab ive sold ALOTTT ALOOTT AAAAA LOOOTTT

all of these are mine, solely because of the p2w tab

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Ventor wrote:

This game is pay to win. When you buy a lot of supporter packs, GGG become bias toward you and let you get away with things that a normal non-supporter wouldn't get away with.

At the drop of a hat I can provide evidence of several supporters which blatantly RMT. But nothing will happen to them.

I can only recall a few instances of big fish supporters being banned and those were due to botting. That's one thing GGG won't tolerate from anyone.

But that's the nature of the "Free to play" business model. I don't hate GGG for it but I just disagree with their model.

From personal experience, I got the banhammer on my original account that had a Diamond Pack, Grandmaster Pack, Exalted Pack, and the Champion pack for RMT. I will say that it may not be exactly the same thing you say you have evidence of, as I'm guessing that's for supporters RMT as buyers. My situation was RMTing from the other side as a vendor. I had accumulated a ton of legacy variants and assorted currency in Standard from challenge league carry-over/hardcore deaths, which I turned into a ton of exalted and offloading on wholesalers.

This wasn't even a long-term, part-time or full-time enterprise. It was pretty much done over the course of two weeks, since I only even resorted to it as a last resort to keep a roof over my head. A series of unfortunate events where I was down-sized out of a job, my dog needed surgery, followed by carpal tunnel surgery in very quick succession flipped my financial situation from smooth sailing to panic attack.

If you really do have proof though, I recommend PMing that GGG fellow who's already responded to you, and showing it to him, even if you've done so before. If you get some bans dropped chances it'll ruin their days bigtime. I still regret losing my Diamond Kiwi more than anything else, even though I pretty much had no other options, and it gave me the leeway to steady the course and get my shit together. Also, they're unforgiving if bans are issued, no second chances or temporary bans on an account with no other infractions except a handful of mutes when conversations got colorful in 5055chat.

If the response you get from GGG is lackluster, supposing you do have hard proof of the allegations, than make some posts on Reddit. The normal crowd there will latch onto it like a pitbull, especially if you do it now during the lull in Atlas information, since most discussion is pretty much dead with challenge leagues ending soon and all the races over with. The negative publicity will almost certainly spur them into action.

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CaoMengde wrote:

p2w stashtabs are p2w
i dont get how people think they arent, they mustve never cared about "the trade game"

having better gear = gameplay advantage... having better gear is like one of the major goals of this game isnt it? its even in the company's name "grinding gear"

TIME advantage is, the greatest advantage possible in life.. time is the ultimate resource.
p2w tabs provide a time advantage

On that note, I feel like the entire trading thing is a shortcut to victory. In my head Diablo-style ARPGs are meant to be played self-found and any trading trivializes the game to the point where you just grind X amount of currency and buy whatever you want. There's no sense of discovery, no feeling of joy from a good drop when you already know it's inferior to the items on the market.

Of course, this is just my own headcanon. I don't go bithcing about trading on the forums because I realize other people want to trade. I'll play the game in my own way and don't care what others do.

"p2w stashtabs are p2w"

The hurt booty. Oh the hurt, hurt booty. As was said earlier, try playing literally any other ARPG game, any facebook game, any mobile game, then come back and realize what p2w truly is. 4 tabs is plenty if you aren't a hoarder trying to nickel and dime your way to exalts for multiple chars per league.

If you are playing the leagues and don't play standard like I do, you could always create a few spare chars and fill their inventory too, just saying.

All content is accessible for free. All classes are free. All skills are free. There is no currency you can buy. There is no gear you can buy. There are no "booster packs" you can buy.

Do you want GGG to make zero dollars and support a game with great graphics, on servers around the world, with frequent updates, JUST BECAUSE?! Yea, and I want a free car and house with my bills paid for and a fridge that never runs out of bacon and steaks.

Go play Drakensang and talk about p2w. Try any Nexon game. Try any Trion game. Try any NCSoft game. Try any Aeria game. You'll see real quick what paying is and what being grossly hampered by not paying is.

If PoE was 60 bucks I'd have bought it. That isn't what GGG did and look how successful they've been by having QUALITY. Make something great and people will WANT to pay you. 99% of other games make something mediocre at best and EXPECT you to pay to make it a real game. Haven't been able to pitch as much money as I'd like to to support GGG but it's the only game worth pitching any money at. I got a few cosmetics and bought 6 stash tabs like 2 years ago. By not hoarding (mostly), I've still not used tabs 9 or 10 in a league.

Yes trading is important and pretty necessary to building a full char for end game. But I'm guessing all the people complaining about stash tabs being p2w probably have a 50% or higher filled tab of gems they don't use right off the bat. They probably refuse to grind out chaos orbs from the recipe or regals and probably refuse to make their own items (ironic, given the complaints). To top that off many players give out stuff for free here and there when people ASK NICELY. I've been gifted some nice stuff, done some gifting myself. To the non-complainers. To the people who genuinely enjoy the game. To the people just looking for a little help. Not to people who demand it.

The booty....its so, so hurt. GGG has made a masterpiece and they've made it free to play. I tried looking all over the site and haven't found where they said "you'll get every item and be lvl 100 on all chars for free easily". Most legit company I've ever seen and its working so off your high and mighty little pedestals. Either be more frugal with your space, be more polite while ASKING for some help, or cough up what is honestly not a lot of money and have those extra tabs forever. If you've played for more than a year or plan to, a pack of tabs runs down to what, a dollar a month broken down? A dollar a month for the most comprehensive ARPG in existence. That's your complaint? A dollar? Hell I played the first 2 years just fine with just the 4 tabs and I happily got more when I wanted to do more. HAPPILY :) When I have more cash to spare I'll give them more too. Because my money feels worth it to enhance my experience, not because I feel its necessary to have an experience.

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justhackitup wrote:

try playing literally any other ARPG game, any facebook game, any mobile game, then come back and realize what p2w truly is.

The Diablo, Torchlight and Sacred series of ARPG games don't even have cash shops and therefore can't be pay-to-win. Granted none of those games is free-to-play either.

(Sorry for the nitpick, but you did say literally.)