Game Balance Development Manifesto Post

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Rakiii wrote:

Well you just picked up smth ... still don´t offer solution ... well lets look at it.

1) Yes but imperceptible ... compare f.e. cleave vs LA and XP/Hour

2) You can have balanced game or anarchism (=current state).
Well I don´t like hard caps (d2 got damage cap though ...). Although with diminishing return you can still invest into basically whatever you want but with fair downside.
Imo it makes much more sense too. Look at it in the different way... Usain bolt (or any runner at 100m) has been improving yourself quite fast until he reached 10 seconds. When he reached the limit he can improve yourself much slower now (but still can)

3) Sry but I think the current meta just 5x more damage gems (and maybe one leech) is boring.
My comment was more about gem philosophy than about specific gem. Some gems would have increased damage (not much) with fair downside (but should be more creative).
6L should be about perfection (doesn´t need extra damage)
Those who spent big resources just for a few damage or life in D2 knows what Iam talking about (415/15/3 eth botd etc.)

4) Fortitude still gives permanent fortify being melee or not right?

You can't compare XP\hr between playstyles that have issues with ones that are doing fine. Perhaps with the old BOR and the correct setup you could speedrun gorges in a similar speed with cleave as you can with LA.

I don't care about some real life comparison, this is a game, I care about what works in this and other games of a similar genre.

There isn't enough "interesting" playstyle gems to support various builds, so limiting or removing the damage bonuses they provide isn't a solution at all. You cant even counter the argument about slower proj because there literally is no counter you can possibly make. GGG would have to completely redesign various support gems and add new ones for the sole purpose of having an point to use them in links. I don't give 2 shits what you think the current meta is, if we have some people doing CoC without support gems and then some people doing EQ with as much more multipliers as possible and everything in between then I'd say its a pretty good balance between options.

You want gems to essentially be like runes in D3, which are relatively pointless and will 100% have a best option in that case. At least now not all bow builds use slower proj, at least now sometimes you see spectral throw builds use stuff like faster proj. The options are there and while the "meta" builds might use this or that, the meta changes all of the time, only earthquake (i think) can use less duration as a melee skill, so that isn't an option if you wanted to use it with another melee gem, you still select your support gems after you select your skill and figure out how many links you are working with. People seem to think that support gems should be this unlimited swap in and out and not matter, obviously it should matter because if it didn't then what is the freaking point anyway?

Yes it gives fortify all of the time, but in doing so you are losing out on massive bonuses other AC would have given you, its a tradeoff and one most people aren't taking now anyway. Lets also not forget this class was also indirectly nerfed by having 2 more points to work with, making other classes more attractive.

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goetzjam wrote:

What makes it shit in your eyes or what can GGG do to fix it?

Its damage/AoE ratio.
Cleave has very small AoE and deals below average damage. That's why it sucks. Increase its damage, or AoE, or both - and skill will be useful. Same can be said about ALL melee skills. Increase their AoE or damage by appropriate amount - and they all suddenly became useful.

Overall, i do agree - game balance now looks like a complete shit. I want to play different 2-h melee builds, but i always find that EQ is the best, and any other build can be "improved" by just swapping main skill for Earthquake (and use Ancestral Warcheif for 2-nd 6-link). I want use various 2-handers, but Hegemony's Era DPS is so insane, that other weapons arent options at all (also, non-crit weapons just LACK proper gems for EQ). The only real choice is class selection, and even then, it's just a choice between Juggernaut and Slayer.

1) Xp/hour is 1 of the most important index how to compare skills
There are ofc different playstyles, some positives, some negatives but there should
be big discrepancy in damage between close range and big range skill (you can still clear maps a bit faster with f.e. LA and be more succesfull with f.e. cleave in closecombat fights)

2) So you basically like facerolling content and some kind of elitism. OK, it´s your choice.
You can inspire yourself here or there but it seems you have no idea about balancing stuff.
Atleast you don´t give us no arguments to support your opinion.

3)

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goetzjam wrote:

I don't give 2 shits what you think the current meta is, if we have some people doing CoC without support gems and then some people doing EQ with as much more multipliers as possible and everything in between then I'd say its a pretty good balance between options.

Ok so basically you´re telling us that everything is ok and "well balanced."

4) It´s not about class being nerfed it´s about melee vs ranged balance but you think it´s ok.

So it´s basically waste of my time to react. You shoudn´t spend your time posting here bcos everything is fine which is perfectly ok if you think so.

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Rakiii wrote:

1) Xp/hour is 1 of the most important index how to compare skills
There are ofc different playstyles, some positives, some negatives but there should
be big discrepancy in damage between close range and big range skill (you can still clear maps a bit faster with f.e. LA and be more succesfull with f.e. cleave in closecombat fights)

2) So you basically like facerolling content and some kind of elitism. OK, it´s your choice.
You can inspire yourself here or there but it seems you have no idea about balancing stuff.
Atleast you don´t give us no arguments to support your opinion.

3)

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goetzjam wrote:

I don't give 2 shits what you think the current meta is, if we have some people doing CoC without support gems and then some people doing EQ with as much more multipliers as possible and everything in between then I'd say its a pretty good balance between options.

Ok so basically you´re telling us that everything is ok and "well balanced."

4) It´s not about class being nerfed it´s about melee vs ranged balance but you think it´s ok.

So it´s basically waste of my time to react. You shoudn´t spend your time posting here bcos everything is fine which is perfectly ok if you think so.

1) XP/hour is an important thing for skills comparison, but boss killing speed is also important. Some skills may lack clearing speed VS packs (mines, warchief totem, etc), but they can bring down a boss very quickly. On other hand, when clearing Gorge or something, low-DPS but high-AoE skills (LA) or movement skills (shield charge) may show way too good results, just because a well-geared character oneshots mobs there with any skill, so damage is irrelevant.

2) You're right there - facerolling content is bad, when it's meant to be endgame content.

3)When you have ~20 melee skills, but one of them (EQ) outperforms all others by 2-3 times, i cant say balance was ever there!

4) If you take EQ into account, them melee is in a good spot now. Is it true "melee"? No! But in current meta, "true" melee will never shine. Even if you increase Heavy Strike's damage by 400%, players will still use EQ for pack clearing (although could use Heavy Stike against bosses, if they have a second 6-link).

MortalKombat3 - 1,4: There are ofc other things how to compare skills besides XP/hour. We would compare rare/boss kills/hour or smth like that. We should have choices (lets say 1 aoe and 1 boss skill for killing stuff)
But you can just pick LA or whatever range skill (EQ is (semi)range skill) and faceroll everything in current state.
But that´s what Iam talking about - skills should be scaled with AOE (there are also things such as melee splash and proliferation that we need to care about)


My previous comment was about reducing big discrepancy among different builds/gem setups
What you thing about it?

* Diminishing investment = not linear relation in damage and speed (investing in those should be less effective).
Probably everything should be like this = you can mix/max smth only with big sacrifice (= you can´t have any kind of imunity or smth like that but rather a bit of advantage in some situation)

I can imagine other possibilities how to get better balance here .. such as hard caps or possible passive skill point distribution into two groups (50% defensive and 50% offensive points to spent etc).

* Make all (or the most) supporting gems not affecting damage. Instead of those more damage gems we should use life/mana leech, knockback, projectile speed etc (old ones should be reworked)
AoE gem should have downside in damage (smth like XX% less damage similar to GMP or diminishing return)
It would bring more build diversity and also reduce discrepancy among 4/5/6L items = better for balancing content.

I think it would bring some PvE balance but PvP balance is another story though:)
(well it might help with pvp too)

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goetzjam wrote:

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- Unrelenting (Juggernaut) - this mechanic has proofen to be too OP, because of various possible interactions with other items, skills and mechanics (Voll's Devotion, Discharge, Immortal Call CWDT, King's Guard etc.) - rework this notable or take a carefull look at all its interactions

Again the only thing that makes that class worth a damn.


I think your complaints with classes are in line with the complains about champion last league. You see how "good" champion is now, right? Its mediocre at best.

Champion is "fine" in its current state - it is still a really good class, but its starting location is limiting the builds it shines, which is okay. You can do some pretty cool stuff with this class.
Last league it was OP because of the rediculous 18% free movement speed and 25% buffed fortify (better than normal fortify) - now the numbers have actually been balanced and it is fine compared to other options.

Juggernaut's Untrelenting itself isn't the problem, all other mechanics around endurance charges like Immortal Call and Discharge + King's Guard are. Having 8-10 Endurance charges permanently up for mitigation is unique and powerfull, but not OP - the instant gaining part is.
Juggernaut offers a lot even without this noteable, it is a well designed class imho.

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Wiesl_1404 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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- Unrelenting (Juggernaut) - this mechanic has proofen to be too OP, because of various possible interactions with other items, skills and mechanics (Voll's Devotion, Discharge, Immortal Call CWDT, King's Guard etc.) - rework this notable or take a carefull look at all its interactions

Again the only thing that makes that class worth a damn.


I think your complaints with classes are in line with the complains about champion last league. You see how "good" champion is now, right? Its mediocre at best.

Champion is "fine" in its current state - it is still a really good class, but its starting location is limiting the builds it shines, which is okay. You can do some pretty cool stuff with this class.
Last league it was OP because of the rediculous 18% free movement speed and 25% buffed fortify (better than normal fortify) - now the numbers have actually been balanced and it is fine compared to other options.

Juggernaut's Untrelenting itself isn't the problem, all other mechanics around endurance charges like Immortal Call and Discharge + King's Guard are. Having 8-10 Endurance charges permanently up for mitigation is unique and powerfull, but not OP - the instant gaining part is.
Juggernaut offers a lot even without this noteable, it is a well designed class imho.

Jugg wasn't picked up for a reason, it had to be adjusted in order to be a bit more balanced, the charge thing will be somewhat nerfed when CoC gets nerfed, yes you can still do mjolner, but thats already a weaker build.

Secondly, champion is mediocre at best, its selection literally fell off a cliff if you look at this patch compared to the previous one. Its whole identity was basically removed, I mean sure its unconditional fortify, but now what else are you really getting?

Compare champion of now to elementalist of now and tell me everything is fine there, LOL.

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1) Xp/hour is 1 of the most important index how to compare skills
There are ofc different playstyles, some positives, some negatives but there should
be big discrepancy in damage between close range and big range skill (you can still clear maps a bit faster with f.e. LA and be more succesfull with f.e. cleave in closecombat fights)

This isn't at all how you should compare skills, some skills may 1 shot the screen in gorge and give you the most XP an hour, while others will give you a faster clear in a higher level map, but sustaining the higher level map might be too difficult for the build\player.

Anyway comparing ranged to melee never will be favorable for melee if you want to talk about clearspeed.

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2) So you basically like facerolling content and some kind of elitism. OK, it´s your choice.
You can inspire yourself here or there but it seems you have no idea about balancing stuff.
Atleast you don´t give us no arguments to support your opinion.

?

I explained why the whole 4\5\6 link thing was important to the game to remain power spikes, I explained why support gems in PoE need to be what they are now and not just some stupid d3 like rune system.

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3)Ok so basically you´re telling us that everything is ok and "well balanced."

No I'm saying there is options when it comes to support gems depending on the build you use, its not like everyone stacks literally the same support gems. (unless they are doing the same build)

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4) It´s not about class being nerfed it´s about melee vs ranged balance but you think it´s ok.

So it´s basically waste of my time to react. You shoudn´t spend your time posting here bcos everything is fine which is perfectly ok if you think so.

Rolls eye, everything isn't fine but approaching it like the sky is falling never works and it alienates the player base to do massive changes instead of small and tactical changes that have a much better effect.

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goetzjam wrote:

Rolls eye, everything isn't fine but approaching it like the sky is falling never works and it alienates the player base to do massive changes instead of small and tactical changes that have a much better effect.

OK agreed but when is the last time you saw someone using sweep? Glacial hammer? Heavy strike? Dual strike? Viper strike? Double strike? And be honest when is the last time riposte served a useful purpose beyond what pretty much any other gem slotted there would have provided?

When's the last time you saw someone use puncture or frenzy as a melee skill? Or yeah, where did cleave go?

There is more needed with that bunch than small tactical changes. And be honest, people have been complaining about melee not being as good as caster/bow builds since beta. There has always been a couple melee builds at best that were good, usually one or zero, and caster and bow builds can pretty much work with just about anything.

Bottom line is it's not like GGG hasn't had plenty of time to work on this. People left this game YEARS ago because of melee being the way it was, and it's still like that today.

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goetzjam wrote:

unconditional fortify, but now what else are you really getting?

You get 20% more damage dealt and 6% less damage taken. Also you get bonuses to melee damage, if you're melee.
And fortify for bow/wand build itself is a HUGE bonus.

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Rakiii wrote:

But you can just pick LA or whatever range skill (EQ is (semi)range skill) and faceroll everything in current state.
But that´s what Iam talking about - skills should be scaled with AOE (there are also things such as melee splash and proliferation that we need to care about)

EQ and Ground Slam both have very good AoE. But why no one use Ground Slam? Because its damage sucks!
On other hand, CoC cyclone is one of the strongest builds, despite being actualy a MELEE build (has to come in close contact with enemy = melee). I know, you can MOVE shile cycloning, but that's actually a brillian solution to make melee viable without turnint him into ranged or (with recent changes) totemist.

Melee is bad because some melee skills have shit Damage/(AoErange) ratio. That's the sad truth. Since high AoE or range turns melee into ranged, damage is that melee really need. Buff damae on melee skills like Double Strike by 200, 300, 400%, and they will became very useful and popular suddenly.