Chris: You are Wrong about Red Maps.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Nerfing the clear speed meta is easy. All you need to do is give all movement skills an internal cooldown, especially whirling blades. The caster variants are already pretty decent about this as lightning warp isn't instant anymore, and flame dash has a maximum of 3 charges. The rest of them not so much. Sure, there will still be people flasking up with quicksilvers, but that is much harder to sustain map wide and has a much higher opportunity cost. The problem is that GGG is hesistant to break the clear speed meta entirely.

You are wrong.
The root of current meta is powercreep. Players oneshot whole screens full of mobs (or even 2 screens) in 0.3-1 second, including rares and even bosses sometimes. If GGG somehow increase time needed to kill trash/rares/bosses, the "clear speed" meta will go.
Of course, claer speed will ALWAYS do matter. But in balanced game, clear speed should depend on balanced combination of AoE DPS, AoE coverage, single-target DPS, survivability and movement speed. In current meta, only AoE coverage and movespeed matter. That's why we have so silly meta.
Also, hard maps, bosses and other challenges are not rewarded appropriately (with an exception of uber lab).

Funny, I've been one shotting screens since before forsaken masters. Or pretty much the equivalent of it. So to me movement speed is the much larger problem. Which it looks like you came to that conclusion and yet don't agree that movement speed is the problem *scratches his head*. I'm not sure what hard maps/bosses/challenges being rewarded appropriately has anything to do with the clearspeed meta. If there is enough powercreep for people to just instagib all of these bosses, they shouldn't be a problem to begin with. Oh, is it the layouts you're talking about? Oh that would be a movement issue. Great Scott.

MS is definitely part of the problem, same for power creep. Both together enable the shitty meta as it is.

But if we have to weight them by their influence, MS is less of a problem. If the game was balanced properly, MS doesn't matter much if you clear relatively slow and be able to benefit greatly from it only with godly gear. Or if moving too fast could make you hit something you'd like to approach slower. Or both at a time.

That's coming from players' POV. Developers' one is different, majority of them typically cut down the MS to prolong the playability. I've always wondered why is MS in this game so out of control.

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torturo wrote:

MS is definitely part of the problem, same for power creep. Both together enable the shitty meta as it is.

But if we have to weight them by their influence, MS is less of a problem. If the game was balanced properly, MS doesn't matter much if you clear relatively slow and be able to benefit greatly from it only with godly gear. Or if moving too fast could make you hit something you'd like to approach slower. Or both at a time.

That's coming from players' POV. Developers' one is different, majority of them typically cut down the MS to prolong the playability. I've always wondered why is MS in this game so out of control.

Power creep is almost a necessity in a game that continues developing new content -- if there is nothing new and exciting people get bored quicker. Reigning that in, is much harder than reigning in movement speed. Assuming you actually reigned in power creep by making mobs exceptionally powerful, you make a lot of builds garbage tier (which forces people to play the meta). If you reign in power creep by nerfing everything, you just piss people off.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Power creep is almost a necessity in a game that continues developing new content

Not if it's trimmed properly, a.k.a balance.
By your logic all games of this kind become a oneshot fest and immortal characters after a couple of years of development, which of course isn't true.

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torturo wrote:

By your logic all games of this kind become a oneshot fest and immortal characters after a couple of years of development, which of course isn't true.

Out of curiosity, what ARPGs didn't become essentially a oneshot fest of immortal characters after a few years of development?

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kamil1210 wrote:

Does OP try to convince people that main developer of game that have access to data made of all account in game is wrong?

If you run Gorge and say: this is best XP in game.

And developer say: Gorge is not the best xp/h any many players that we track prove this.

Then you are wrong.

the issue is that the op and ggg are talking about two separate things.

the op is concerned about exp per hour and investment needed to roll maps

i suspect chris is talking about exp per map which technically means higher tier maps would win out.
however total exp per map is a metric that only matters if every map in the game was equally difficult to sustain.

how ever t8 -10 maps are several times easier to sustain, build , purchase and run than high tier maps.

And in the end if you want to level , exp per map is not the metric you look for. you look for exp per hour. and if the exp per hour of plataeu is higher than any t11 - 15 map. then plateau is the best exp in the game.

as for map gated wealth.. as already stated the only gated unique worth anything is skyforth and it is basically proven that chancing them is easier than finding them.


So yeah , Chris is wrong mostly because it seems he is using the wrong metric for success in regard to exp.

And it is this fundamental misunderstanding that has landed the game in this quagmire.

unless you are purposefully wanting to see if your build can survive some crazy ass shit .. there is no use for high tier maps. and sure i can see people wanting to test themselves. you dont need a high map pool for that. you just need a single rolled map.

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exhortatory wrote:

Out of curiosity, what ARPGs didn't become essentially a oneshot fest of immortal characters after a few years of development?

"Pure" aRPGs - D1/2, sacred, torchlight (it's so-so), TQ, GD, or at least that's my experience with this genre.
Don't remember games like BG 1/2 and DS spoiled by power creep either.

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torturo wrote:

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exhortatory wrote:

Out of curiosity, what ARPGs didn't become essentially a oneshot fest of immortal characters after a few years of development?

"Pure" aRPGs - D1/2, sacred, torchlight (it's so-so), TQ, GD, or at least that's my experience with this genre.
Don't remember games like BG 1/2 and DS spoiled by power creep either.

D1 had very little power creep because the only additional content they added was a single player standalone expansion, and bug fixes. Hardly comparable to a game like Path of Exile. Can't speak to D2.

Torchlight had massive power creep built into the game. It had a legacy system where you could literally keep on making one item better and better. And thats skipping over the fact you could put like 20 enchants on a single item. I also don't remember an extended development cycle of this game either, but maybe I missed it -- I don't even recall an expansion.

The others I haven't played and therefore cannot comment on. But I will say that this power creep isn't really part of the ARPG genre, but more games that continue to release content. You'll more likely see it in games classified as MMORPGs, as they release new content to keep people playing, and need that content to feel rewarding.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Funny, I've been one shotting screens since before forsaken masters. Or pretty much the equivalent of it. So to me movement speed is the much larger problem. Which it looks like you came to that conclusion and yet don't agree that movement speed is the problem *scratches his head*. I'm not sure what hard maps/bosses/challenges being rewarded appropriately has anything to do with the clearspeed meta. If there is enough powercreep for people to just instagib all of these bosses, they shouldn't be a problem to begin with. Oh, is it the layouts you're talking about? Oh that would be a movement issue. Great Scott.

It seems you completely missed my point.
I wanted to tell, that if most builds ONESHOT whole SCREENS, then you AUTOMATICALLY will have the current meta.
GGG may add cooldowns to movement skills, or reduce movespeed bonuses - it wont change the meta! Yes, players will move slower, but they will still want to get as much AoE and MOVESPEED as possible, leving everything else behind.

The superiority of straight layouts is just an another indicator of "oneshot meta", where your clear speed is mainly dependant upon your movement/loot picking speed. i believe, it shouldnt be this way.



I suggest to increase HP for all mobs and bosses by 200-400%. It will be a good start for a more balanced game. Also, pack density and XP rewards for killing trash should be rebalanced - ATM it's just too rewarding to kill trash.

That Q&A while appreciated, just exposed their ignorance. They have no clue what is happening.