[2.3] 2MIL DPS (4MIL in theory) JUGGERNAUT New Era of COC DISCHARGE (Uber Atziri/ Core Deathless)

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aphrodite_1289 wrote:

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Damon_Tor wrote:

That's not what I meant about movement speed.

You get a "free" cyclone attack when you start your spin, which means your actual attacks per second is based more on how quickly you can get from the start of your cyclone to the end than on your actual "attack speed". It used to be where all the high-teir cyclone builds ignored attack speed all together because of this and focused entirely on movement speed, ultimately resulting in a "cast speed" that beat out even incinerate builds.

But maybe they changed how it works since I played last? I did notice they added "first spin deals 50% less damage" to the gem, presumably to help reign in exactly this behavior. However, in a COC build we don't really care about that, we just care about how quickly we can generate crits, so the 50% less damage shouldn't bother us at all.

You're partially right about it.

First of all, Sorry, I have to correct my previous post. I know the method of quickly resetting cyclone and used it in my video's, tho Im not really good at it. But the thing is I thought it was still 100% based on our tooltip aps which is wrong, that was why I said about 230% dmg.

So, I took some tests with Trypanon (tooltip 1.4 aps) vs dagger (tooltip 3.42 aps). The result is Trypanon setup hit 2 times per, and dagger setup hit 3 times per. looks like it still based on the tooltip aps, but I cant find a real formula about it.

According to the hit time diff, that should be 50% dps different. (I even tried a setup with 2.69 aps and it still hits 2 times per, so I can say Trypanon is limited to hit 2 times per, but I didnt test out with how much aps, we could reach 4 hit per. At least I still do 3 hit per with 6.0 tooltip aps.)

Besides, In my tree, I take flask nodes, and mv speed nodes which almost maximize my movement speed in this build. But with Trypanon, Im not sure how could you increase your movement speed.

There's another reason I didnt want to mention is about clearing speed which implies the usage of whirlblading. Thats one of the reason that many coc discharge builds use dagger and invest in attack speed.

Still, Trypanon works in this build. But Im not sure if its cheaper than two vagan daggers in temp league. To me, I wouldnt say Trypanon is a bad idea, but there are rly some downsides to make it work.

For some reason I can't find what the base movespeed (in units per second) is, which means math is hard, but some testing done a while ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McqDMQD3u9g) showed some huge numbers based on a very high movement speed: 4.5 - 4.8 attacks per second with a movespeed bonus of 53% by spinning the minimum distance of 10 units (basically right in front of you) And this is with ANY weapon REGARDLESS of actual attack speed. The listed APS is irrelevant as long as you're making the smallest spins possible... and why wouldn't you be? After all, your scolds only triggers when you CAST cyclone, so you want to be casting it as much as possible... which means movespeed is king.

30% boots
14% from ascendancy class
9% level 20 haste
= 53% Movespeed

No extra unique items needed.

Based on that, you should revisit your math: your daggers hit at the exact same rate as the Trumpcannon, but Trump crits every single hit. The only upside for your daggers in terms of landing more crits is that they hit every time, but remember that Trump doesn't need to roll accuracy a second time to confirm a crit, so its listed hit rate (90% is easy) IS its crit rate. It also has a higher base attack range than daggers.

Trypanon sounds interesting. Not having whirling blades or shield charge might suck though. However, I could save a lot of points on my tree if I don't need crit. Perhaps I'll give it a try someday and see how well it works.

On another note, I found mana to be an issue and I wanted to share my solution. I swapped HoI for a level 21 Clarity and put cold damage on both daggers. Now, I never need a mana pot. I also use a Vinktar flask which helps with mana as well as boosting dps and reducing lighting reflect.

food for thought.

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__SirPuFFaLoT__ wrote:

Trypanon sounds interesting. Not having whirling blades or shield charge might suck though. However, I could save a lot of points on my tree if I don't need crit. Perhaps I'll give it a try someday and see how well it works.

On another note, I found mana to be an issue and I wanted to share my solution. I swapped HoI for a level 21 Clarity and put cold damage on both daggers. Now, I never need a mana pot. I also use a Vinktar flask which helps with mana as well as boosting dps and reducing lighting reflect.

food for thought.

I'm working on a Trumpcannon/Scolds COC Juggernaut now, though he's not high enough level for Scold's yet. Later today I should have it operational.

I'm going with Blood Magic on mine, combined with a few "-Mana Cost %" nodes which happen to be paired with other useful features like +Accuracy and +Health, both of which are easily accessible from the Marauder start, so the health loss is fairly small, plus you have access to the really nice +Max Health nodes hidden behind Blood Magic.

Anyone able to find out base movespeed? Weird that it isn't available on the wiki as far as I can tell. Hard to figure out real DPS for cyclone and COC based on cyclone without that information.

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Damon_Tor wrote:

For some reason I can't find what the base movespeed (in units per second) is, which means math is hard, but some testing done a while ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McqDMQD3u9g) showed some huge numbers based on a very high movement speed: 4.5 - 4.8 attacks per second with a movespeed bonus of 53% by spinning the minimum distance of 10 units (basically right in front of you) And this is with ANY weapon REGARDLESS of actual attack speed. The listed APS is irrelevant as long as you're making the smallest spins possible... and why wouldn't you be? After all, your scolds only triggers when you CAST cyclone, so you want to be casting it as much as possible... which means movespeed is king.

Thanks for totally ignoring my experiment result.

Anyway, I made the video Click ME, and I think it will explain everything. According to the first setup (2.69aps), it hits 2 times per a short spin vs the second setup (5.01aps) which hits 3 times per a short spin. (If you cant differentiate how many hit times I do from the screen, you can listen to the sound effect. That would be easier.)
The 2.69aps setup is with Unarmed 1.2aps base, so we can say Trypanon will be even lower because of its 0.63aps base.

I have no problem that aps doesnt affect how many short spins you can do in a time duration. But aps does affects how many hit times you can do per a short spin. So the difference is literally 50% more dmg from hit 2 times vs hit 3 times.

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Damon_Tor wrote:

30% boots
14% from ascendancy class
9% level 20 haste
= 53% Movespeed

No extra unique items needed.

First of all,
I alrdy have 30+25=55% movement speed without haste. So, movement speed is not a drawback in my dagger build, not to mention if I want, I could take flask charge/duration nodes on my dagger tree with almost full-time Quicksilver/Silver flasks up

Second,
If you take 14% movement speed on ascendancy class tree, you have to drop 30% dmg/ 25% fortify effect / 1.5% + 0.4% life regen. Is this tradeoff worth?

Third, Thats a naive thought to use haste here.
1. If you use Haste, How are you able to use purity of fire and herald of ice?
2. If you dont use purity of fire, how can you deal with reflect?
3. If you dont use herald of ice, how can you trigger EE in your case?
The answer of 3 is that you will have to drop either a kaom's way, or maligaro for a random rare ring/glove with x-y cold dmg which I feel is really bad tradeoff for using haste.

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Damon_Tor wrote:

Based on that, you should revisit your math: your daggers hit at the exact same rate as the Trumpcannon, but Trump crits every single hit. The only upside for your daggers in terms of landing more crits is that they hit every time, but remember that Trump doesn't need to roll accuracy a second time to confirm a crit, so its listed hit rate (90% is easy) IS its crit rate. It also has a higher base attack range than daggers.

OK, so lets revisit our result again.

1. From Proc Rate aspect, Vagan daggers has roughly 50% higher Proc rate than Trypanon according to my experiment result based on my 90% cyclone crit chance and your 90% chance to hit. (Note that I use diamond flask here not only for my cyclone crit chance, but also for discharge crit chance. It literally gives us a flat 20~25% crit chance in discharge.)

2. From the Discharge dmg aspect, Vagan daggers have global crit chance implicit mods, spell dmg, spell crit while Trypanon has nothing. So we can imgaine how big dmg diff between dagger version and Trypanon version.

3. From Clearing speed aspect, Ofc dagger wins with whirlblading, not to mention if I want, I could take flask charge/duration nodes on my dagger tree with almost full-time Quicksilver/Silver flasks up.

4. From the Tree nodes aspect, according to My other Tree with +1 curse, you can save 17 nodes by dropping Twin Terrors and Disemboweling but lose 18% max life. So where you gonna put them on tree to make back ur dps loss and that 18% max life loss?

5. From the defense aspect, I have 25% reduced damage taken vs your 20% reduced damage taken from fortify. This should be some significant difference.

6. Last and most important one, from the item cost aspect, 2 vagan daggers are almost same value as Trypanon in STD league, but Trypanon is definitely more expensive if we're in temp league. If a weaker version costs cheaper, we might be able to just accept that fact. What about today a weaker version costs even more expensive?

Correct me if I were wrong, but Im not gonna reply if you ignore my result again.

Don't get upset, you're taking this personally.

I don't question that you're getting in more attacks in a short spin, I'm questioning whether it's worth it: you're running all three hits/spin through your single 65% crit chance. Cyclone only rolls crit once per activation, so really all you're getting is three chances to discharge, not three chances to crit. If the crit roll fails at cyclona activation all three hits will be duds: no power charges, no discharge. It doesn't matter how many enemies are there, none of those hits will crit.

Meanwhile, Trypanon always crits as long as it hits, and a 90% hit rate is easy without any significant investment or sacrifice. If you take undeniable it's a solid 95%, but you don't need to at all. You'd have a gem free in your chest (don't need Increased Critical Strikes) for Improved Accuracy, again getting you 95% but you don't need to. If you hit even 2 enemies with your spin you have a 99% chance to crit at least one of them. There are virtually zero dud spins with Trypanon until you get to a single target, and then he duds only 10% of the time compared to 35%.

So that's the tradeoff. More reliable crit versus more reliable discharge when you do crit, but then only versus single targets and even then the only difference is 5-10%. You only get multiple good (10+ charges) discharges per spin if you get lucky on your rolls: you need to get a power charge off of your cyclone (you can only get one per activation no matter how many times you hit) before you discharge the first time in order to recover your endurance charges for the next attack and then you have to roll to discharge again... and that's just for two discharges. You fail either roll you wind up with no effectively no second discharge. And then for a third discharge you need to roll to draw a power charge from the first or second discharge (because you can't get more than one per cyclone activation) which compounds the problem.

I'm wondering why you're using cyclone, come to think of it. Why not Frenzy? Good attack speed plus charge generation, a new crit roll with each attack and your self-harm to generate endurance charges combo would work much faster too. I'm not seeing much benefit to cyclone in the context of your daggers. Just a thought.

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Damon_Tor wrote:

Don't get upset, you're taking this personally.

I don't question that you're getting in more attacks in a short spin, I'm questioning whether it's worth it: you're running all three hits/spin through your single 65% crit chance. Cyclone only rolls crit once per activation, so really all you're getting is three chances to discharge, not three chances to crit. If the crit roll fails at cyclona activation all three hits will be duds: no power charges, no discharge. It doesn't matter how many enemies are there, none of those hits will crit.

Meanwhile, Trypanon always crits as long as it hits, and a 90% hit rate is easy without any significant investment or sacrifice. If you take undeniable it's a solid 95%, but you don't need to at all. You'd have a gem free in your chest (don't need Increased Critical Strikes) for Improved Accuracy, again getting you 95% but you don't need to. If you hit even 2 enemies with your spin you have a 99% chance to crit at least one of them. There are virtually zero dud spins with Trypanon until you get to a single target, and then he duds only 10% of the time compared to 35%.

So that's the tradeoff. More reliable crit versus more reliable discharge when you do crit, but then only versus single targets and even then the only difference is 5-10%. You only get multiple good (10+ charges) discharges per spin if you get lucky on your rolls: you need to get a power charge off of your cyclone (you can only get one per activation no matter how many times you hit) before you discharge the first time in order to recover your endurance charges for the next attack and then you have to roll to discharge again... and that's just for two discharges. You fail either roll you wind up with no effectively no second discharge. And then for a third discharge you need to roll to draw a power charge from the first or second discharge (because you can't get more than one per cyclone activation) which compounds the problem.

I'm wondering why you're using cyclone, come to think of it. Why not Frenzy? Good attack speed plus charge generation, a new crit roll with each attack and your self-harm to generate endurance charges combo would work much faster too. I'm not seeing much benefit to cyclone in the context of your daggers. Just a thought.

Whooa! Lots of Great Information about Cyclone Mechanic!

About Frenzy, i think Frezy also work like cyclone so only one type of charge per one activation.

Even with multistrike, Frenzy can't generate more than one power charge.

Based on this, attacking while moving(Cyclone) will feel better than Frenzy.



I can see valid argument points between Trypanon and vagan daggers.

I remember that there was discussion about movement speed vs attack speed for cyclone.

If I remember correctly, they both are important and increase damage.

More movement speed = Faster resetting spin = More hit rate = More damage.

Attack speed = more hit per spin = more hit rate = more damage

Based on this, slowest weapon in poe can hit 2 times while short cycloning.

So trypanon is better to scale with movement speed.

In contrast, daggers are scaled well with both.

At the end, both are important but little different approach required to maximize efficient

of weapon type.


In my opinion, daggers are better than trypanon at damage scale

Trypanon is better at consistancy and more room for defense.



I am also doing this build but I adjusted for my personal preference.

It's awesome build :D

I tried Frenzy and it feels way too clunky. Cyclone lets you kill on the move so clear speed is much faster.

The only downside to Cyclone is you cannot target lock with it.

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Damon_Tor wrote:

Don't get upset, you're taking this personally.

I don't question that you're getting in more attacks in a short spin, I'm questioning whether it's worth it: you're running all three hits/spin through your single 65% crit chance. Cyclone only rolls crit once per activation, so really all you're getting is three chances to discharge, not three chances to crit. If the crit roll fails at cyclona activation all three hits will be duds: no power charges, no discharge. It doesn't matter how many enemies are there, none of those hits will crit.

Meanwhile, Trypanon always crits as long as it hits, and a 90% hit rate is easy without any significant investment or sacrifice. If you take undeniable it's a solid 95%, but you don't need to at all. You'd have a gem free in your chest (don't need Increased Critical Strikes) for Improved Accuracy, again getting you 95% but you don't need to. If you hit even 2 enemies with your spin you have a 99% chance to crit at least one of them. There are virtually zero dud spins with Trypanon until you get to a single target, and then he duds only 10% of the time compared to 35%.

Obviously, I AM.
Did you even try to finish reading my arguements? If you think that is wasting your time, then you shouldn't come here to have a debate with me. So please, finish reading it if you want to prove you're right but not keep ignoring my points then roll back to ur owns. Otherwise, you're just wasting my time.

I alrdy pointed this out several times, I have 90% cyclone crit chance with diamond flask which is also useful to boost my discharge crit up by a flat 20~25% crit chance. And bcz of it is vagan dagger, my accuracy is 100%.

Pls stop making "assumptions", you will only have 87~89% chance to hit but not 95% with undeniable (+1000 accuracy), so your stats is let's say 90% chance to hit and 100% crit, which is same as mine in overall.

Increase crit strike is a synergy gem in dagger coc build, which boost both cyclone crit chance and discharge crit chance to make your discharge dps output more consistence. But now you'r saying as if it's unnecessary just like you should throw it away if you are able to. To prove your self is right, you better bring up a example of 6L gem setup so that we can compare with these two cases. But not merely empty words.

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Damon_Tor wrote:

So that's the tradeoff. More reliable crit versus more reliable discharge when you do crit, but then only versus single targets and even then the only difference is 5-10%. You only get multiple good (10+ charges) discharges per spin if you get lucky on your rolls: you need to get a power charge off of your cyclone (you can only get one per activation no matter how many times you hit) before you discharge the first time in order to recover your endurance charges for the next attack and then you have to roll to discharge again... and that's just for two discharges. You fail either roll you wind up with no effectively no second discharge. And then for a third discharge you need to roll to draw a power charge from the first or second discharge (because you can't get more than one per cyclone activation) which compounds the problem.

Totally based on wrong fact. My setup is 90% crit, 100% chance to hit vs urs 100% crit, 90% chance to hit. AND I dont see wat's your argument here. Wat u'r describing here is not only for my case but also for urs. But the fact is I can hit 3 times per shortest spin vs ur 2 times. So these whole description wont make your Trypanon better. Not to mention I have far more discharge crit chance (80% with diamond flask in my case) then urs, which means I can have more chance to gain a power charge by dealing crit discharge.

Besides, we all have 20% chance to self generate endurance charge when hit in this build concept. So I dont see any problem that I can frequently trigger 2 discharges per 3 hits. But you're limited to trigger at most 1 discharge per 2 hits.

I dont want to waste time to make another video. To prove it, check any of my boss fight videos listed on my guide. Core Malachai should be the longest boss fight, so its the best candidate. (In fact, I even triggered 3 discharges during each continuous spin very frequently.)

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Damon_Tor wrote:

I'm wondering why you're using cyclone, come to think of it. Why not Frenzy? Good attack speed plus charge generation, a new crit roll with each attack and your self-harm to generate endurance charges combo would work much faster too. I'm not seeing much benefit to cyclone in the context of your daggers. Just a thought.

lel.

Anyway, Let's revisit the result AGAIN.
1. From Proc Rate aspect, Vagan daggers has roughly 50% higher Proc rate than Trypanon according to my experiment result based on my 90% cyclone crit chance and your 90% chance to hit. (Note that I use diamond flask here not only for my cyclone crit chance, but also for discharge crit chance. It literally gives us a flat 20~25% crit chance in discharge.)

2. From the Discharge dmg aspect, Vagan daggers have global crit chance implicit mods, spell dmg, spell crit while Trypanon has nothing. So we can imgaine how big dmg diff between dagger version and Trypanon version.

3. From Clearing speed aspect, Ofc dagger wins with whirlblading, not to mention if I want, I could take flask charge/duration nodes on my dagger tree with almost full-time Quicksilver/Silver flasks up.

4. From the Tree nodes aspect, according to My other Tree with +1 curse, you can save 17 nodes by dropping Twin Terrors and Disemboweling but lose 18% max life. So where you gonna put them on tree to make back ur dps loss and that 18% max life loss? or just give me an example of ur tree based on your "assumption". Doesnt matter if it's based on my tree or not.

5. From the 6L gem setup aspect, lets say you can free the "useless" Increase crit strike. So give me a better choice than it but not just an empty word.

6. From the defense aspect, I have 25% reduced damage taken vs your 20% reduced damage taken from fortify. This should be some significant difference.

7. Last and most important one, from the item cost aspect, 2 vagan daggers are almost same value as Trypanon in STD league, but Trypanon is definitely more expensive if we're in temp league. If a weaker version costs cheaper, we might be able to just accept that fact. What about today a weaker version costs even more expensive?

This list contains things from almost every diff aspects. So PLS, if you really want to prove you're right, correct me from the list but not just ignore all of it then keep rolling back to ur own points, which is not a good interaction in a debate. For 4th and 5th, give me an example tree and 6L gem setup but NOT JUST EMPTY WORDS.

I am not saying im definitely right, but wat you'r doing now is giving me full of useless info in this comparison without any real example which is comparable.

how do you generate power charges?

Question regarding Atziry fight:

Does using Frenzy (as stationary generation skill)+AA instead of HoI isn't a solution to facetank?