Has Ascendancy really created diversity?

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cesmode wrote:


But overall, do we have an increased variety of builds now?

Think about it...(to name a few examples)

If you want to go full summoner, you roll with Witch > Necromancer and grab Flesh binder, Soul Weaver, Mistress of Sacrifice. These are a given and you really can't deviate from these three if you want to be a good summoner. Even Spirit Eater is more for DD builds, not summoner.



Well, after playing 2 Necro SRS/Zombie/Spectre Witches I'm started this league a Spectre Summoner Guardian and having a blast.

For me, Ascendancy classes giving more diversity in game.
"better to simply go balls deep full retard if you gonna go retard." -Boem-



Cybil's Paw + Max Block Gladiator pretty much makes duelist a spellcaster IMO. It's not like he's lacking methods of scaling DPS on the tree either.
diversity is dead since Ascendancy
Yes. Before when I played a build there was usually one clear cut choice now there are many due to ascendancy.

My crit ice nova build for example was always most efficient as witch by like 2% spell damage over Templar and shadow which she made forays into both areas so could be played by all three toons.

Now it's decisions to make. All good ones.

bypass all monster resist as inquisitor
have crazy 100% Crit as assassin
Be safe on reflect and prolif with elementalist
etc.

so many good choices no right or wrong ones.
Git R Dun!
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Bars wrote:
A small gripe about champion: I think it's a complete waste to pick him for a melee class when you can easily apply fortify with flickerstrike, leap slam or whirling blades and he doesn't bring much else to the table. Berserker, Juggernaut, Slayer, Gladiator are IMO much better for melee builds.

Apart from that, to answer your question:

Ascendancy classes have created diversity in the sense of having more viable builds to play. A year ago there were just a few top-tier skills, a few other barely viable ones and everything else was trash. Nowadays you can pick basically any skill and make a solid build with it. Which is nice. Before the ascendancy classes, there was a point in the game where you had great freedom in choosing whether to play an incinerate witch, an incinerate shadow, an incinerate templar, an incinerate marauder or an incinerate scion. Oh, and don't let me forget the incinerate ranger.

They lessened diversity in terms of available class choices for builds. You can still pull off whacky builds like block necromancer, EK deadeye or melee elementalist but these opportunities are generally much less than before. However, I don't see a way around that. Before, classes were almost meaningless and any build could be duplicated by at least two other classes plus Scion (with the Scion usually being better). Nowadays classes have their very distinct flavour and I like that a lot.


Disagree mostly. Take CoC Discharge - before changes it was all witch all the time. Now it's trickers and assassins, scion, occultists and inquisitors because they all have plus and minuses. There is no right answer.

Some builds are very optimal and clear cut to play one like trappers (sab) but they are fewer than diversification ascendancy brought IMO.

I am sure if you asked the guys who have to maintain the class build threads they will tell you same. Just look how many builds in shadow compared to many patches ago. its totally exlpoded and must be a nightmare to maintain. Reason its exploded is there is so many options to play same skill.
Git R Dun!
Last edited by Aim_Deep on Jun 22, 2016, 12:32:55 PM
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thevdende wrote:
Actually I feel like it had reduced build viability by gating certain mechanics behind a class. You used to be able to make a spell casting duelist, but with the duelist ascendancies its not useful at all. I guess it was never intended to be, but at least it was an option and it wasn't as bad as it seems.


uhmm... I only play Duelist, and I can say that you still can build spellcasters with him.


Fire Trapper Champion = 8 Jewels for Damage + tons of health (and Str) + take the increased damage on Champ tree


Blade Vortex Gladiator = Cybil's Paw + Max Block + Iron Will, then take Spell Block on Glad tree for defence


there is still lots more that I could think of so...

I need more purple titles
I'd say yes, it helps a lot doing weird builds and whatnot.

I think it all comes down to each individual ability to come with something. I notice that I can go X ascendancy to get some nice bonuses where before I could prolly go more than one class and not really have that much difference in nodes.

Now the balance is another subject that I guess GGG will tackle over time.
Oblivious
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cesmode wrote:

Im willing to bet a paycheck that this duelist summoner rocked a champ for fortify. Is the only reason to pick a duelist is for fortify? You can then make any build with a duelist with this line of thinking simply for fortify...Eh, how interesting is that?

That to me is not diversity.

I guess shags was right in the beginning of the thread...what does it mean to be diverse? Because picking duelist soley for fortify is not fostering diversity or creativity in my mind.

I see what a lot of you are saying, and you are all definitely correct. But again, what happened to an RF totem witch, or a templar trapper? why would you pick anything but a shadow for a trapper (please stop using Duelist for fortify as an example...provide others).


The point behind Duelist (whatever) is that the Champion Ascendancy takes what would have otherwise been a build with workable firepower but somewhat shoddy defenses and turns it into a build with workable firepower and actually pretty solid defenses. Yes, the 'You Have Fortify' is the big node there - but that's because it adds an entire category of "[X] + Fortify" builds that didn't exist before.

Again - what you're getting at is the fact that prior to Ascendancy, a small number of top-shelf builds could be played by most any class, with a number of edge cases that could almost work if the player was slow, careful, and had several exalts handy to buy the key combo components. RF Totems was a bad build before Ascendancy, regardless of whether you played it on Witch, Marauder, Templar, or anyone else. Most any variety of trapper was a Bad Build prior to Ascendancy. Most summoners (short twenty-exalt balls-out SRS builds) were Bad Builds before Ascendancy.

Yes, Ascendancy limits most of these builds to one class. Or possibly two classes with markedly different flavors – you’d be surprised how many base builds can tool up different Ascendancies and still work. But the upswing of being confined to a single class is that these builds are, in many cases, now actually good. Chieftain RF Totems is good. Saboteur trapper is good. Necromancer can make non-SRS Summoner builds not completely pants. Champion takes any punchy squishbuild that can tolerate a Duelist start and gives it +5 Fortitude. Juggernaut makes self-cast non-CoC Discharge actually really cool.

And even then, a lot of skills work really well on multiple different Ascendancies, just in different ways. Blast Rain is a great example – I have a Blast Rain Lioneye’s Fall AoF Berserker on Standard that scythes through content with huge attack speed and More damage multipliers from Berserker offsetting Blast Rain’s sluggish animations, with a bunch of extra defenses from being an armored Rearguard-ing Lioneye’s archer. Ziggy had a lot of fun with a Blast Rain Champion that used Fortify to bulk up its defenses while aiming for tons of bow crit. Pathfinder over on Ranger is actually really cool for Blast Rain, too – Master Alchemist with P2L on Blast Rain means you get pretty much guaranteed Shocks (and Ignites, but the Ignites are tiny and generally ignorable) during flask effect, on top of a nice elemental damage boost, passively recharging flasks, and doubled flask regen from most anything you kill. Elementalist over in Witch takes any elemental skill up to Super Saiyan levels, and Inquisitor can build for showers of evil resistance-ignoring bow crits with a Lioneye’d Snake Stance cluster and other staff-to-bow conversions.

You’re yelling at people about pointing out how Champion can do practically any build, but then doing the same thing and pointing to a very narrow niche – Traps – and asking what can do Traps better than the one Ascendancy built specifically for Traps. Yeah, obviously Saboteur is hard to ignore for Trappers, but even then, once again Elementalist can take any elemental skill – including traps – and turn them into the Super Saiyan version of that skill. And Champion can play Traps while being permanently Fortified, for those people who want to layer safety on safety. Realistically, Saboteur’s big claim to fame is being able to detonate multiple traps with a single trigger. If you build for a single large spike of Trap damage though, something like a Vortex trap, you can Conflux it with Elementalist to get huge Ignites and Shocks for follow-up traps (EDIT:: Or do Liege of the Primordial dual-boost on Ice Trap with Pyre to get a lot more damage per ice Trap than Saboteur can manage!).

Total overall build diversity has done nothing but skyrocket upwards with Ascendancy. Certain combinations that used to be mediocre-but-workable-if-you-were-patient are, in fact, still medicore rather than having been uplifted, and the poor unfortunate Scion lost the vast majority of her luster with the update (are any of the poor Scion’s nodes worth using over a regular Ascension?), but on the whole? Things are good for funky buildcrafters, man.
Last edited by 1453R on Jun 22, 2016, 1:50:39 PM
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cesmode wrote:
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thevdende wrote:
Actually I feel like it had reduced build viability by gating certain mechanics behind a class. You used to be able to make a spell casting duelist, but with the duelist ascendancies its not useful at all. I guess it was never intended to be, but at least it was an option and it wasn't as bad as it seems.


Well and thats kind of the point Im making. When you think trapper now, you think Shadow. No other class or starting point on the passive tree is considered. Shadow.

I had a teleporting Witch Trapper before Ascendancy and she's now an Elementalist, more powerful than ever. Global Elemental Proliferation without the gem's drawbacks, and even more resist penetration to buff her Elemental Equilibrium. Those traps one-shot everything but bosses.

IMO, Saboteur is more of a Miner than a Trapper. Some decent trap boosts, but nothing you couldn't find on the main skill tree. As for the Chain Reaction notable, I do NOT want my nearby traps to all go off at once, I want them to lie in wait for multiple targets. For my build, Elementalist is far more effective.
Last edited by RogueMage on Jun 22, 2016, 4:22:53 PM
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RogueMage wrote:
As for the Chain Reaction notable, I do NOT want my nearby traps to all go off at once, I want them to lie in wait for multiple targets.



I actually like chain reaction with ice trap, essentially creates a massive AoE blast that literally wrecks everything, and it helps indirectly shotgun against tough mobs/boss.
Sometimes you can take the game out of the garage but you can't take the garage out of the game.
- raics, 06.08.2016

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