Concerns about Scion balance after 2.3

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sidtherat wrote:

i saw few trees that used 'start as another class' trick and these saved roughly ~10 passives.

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DrGoatMD wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

We do not know yet how the ascendancy and tree balance will be done .....
Speculating without having those information ( which we won't have ) will go nowhere honestly.
Let's wait for Prophecy, and then the discussion will have a meaning.

The new tree's been released.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1665252 The raw skill data's here, and PoESkilltree now has a version that uses it.

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DrGoatMD wrote:

It saves you fifteen skill points, assuming you wouldn't get a single other thing on the way or near it that you'd want anyway.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

ES Scion that doesn't need to path all the way to Witch start to get those ES nodes seems pretty good.

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acme_myst wrote:

I have some concerns about Scion balance, due to the 2.3 introduction of a map-level Labyrinth and the new +2 Ascendancy points that come with it. Specifically, about the relative balance between Scion and any of the other classes.

The point of going Scion/Ascendant is, essentially, that you forego raw power of the Ascendancy bonuses, in exchange for utility/flexibility. Therefore, in order to make this choice worth it, the power-loss/flexibility-gain ratio has to be worth it.

The major difference between the Ascendent tree and the other classes' trees is that the Ascendant needs 3 points to unlock any powerful bonus; the other trees get notables every 2 points. Hence, the Ascendant previously gave up on 3 "full-power" Ascendancy notables, in exchange for 2 "mini-ascendancies". This was, in some cases, worth it.

After the 2.3 update, the Ascendant will be missing out on 4 of these "full-power" notables, but without gaining an additional "mini-ascendancy". What's worse, there is typically some power-difference within the other classes' Ascendancy notables, with the most powerful ones taking 4 points to reach. Where the Ascendant previously gave up on one of these, it must now effectively give up on two of them.

For the Ascendant, in contrast, the extra points unlock either two passives points, one passive and an attribute node, or one passive and the option to start from another point in the tree. In short, I do not believe that these bonuses will outweigh the power-loss relative to the other options available.

This effect is exacerbated by the Ascendant's "mini-ascendancy" re-balance in 2.3; some of the more powerful nodes have been nerfed, but very few of the weaker ones have been buffed.

My concern is that this overall re-balance (and introduction of additional Ascendancy points) will change the Ascendant from an interesting theory-crafter class that is optimal in some niche/min-maxed cases, to what is effectively a "noob-trap" class that will be avoided by "serious" players.

The only two realistic suggestions I have for fixing this, is to either buff all (or, most) of the "mini-ascendancies", or to give the Ascendant 3 Ascendancy points upon completing the map-level Labyrinth.

Of course, this is all theoretical, and GGG likely has a much finer grasp of how these changes affect the between-class balance. Still, I wanted to put these concerns out there to give my perspective on why I think these changes might negatively affect class-diversity and the viability of one of the more interesting classes in the game.

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Starxsword wrote:

Even when Ascendancy first came out, there is really only 1 build for Scion compared to other classes, which was the fairly obvious Spark build