Is it hard to be vegan?

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lagwin1980 wrote:
Also i think some of the arguments for Pro veg are not particularly well thought out.

Like that one about deforestation to grow grain for cattle, so remove the cattle and you still need the extra land to feed your mouth instead of the cows, and if you leave animals be how long is it going to be before they become pests because they are eating your grain/veg and you then start culling them as pests?


You may want to look deeper into those arguments. I posted a link to the vegan subreddit's FAQ earlier. It should have some reasonably in-depth explanations of those arguments, or at least some links to them. I'll touch on some basics, though.

Eating cows is massively less efficient than simply eating the grain ourselves. You lose something like 90% efficiency by eating cows who eat wheat instead of simply eating wheat. There's also the issue of water usage, since a major percentage of water is used in animal agriculture. If everyone was vegan, among other benefits, we'd need significantly less farmland than we currently do.

I'm also not sure what you mean with the last bit you said. Regardless of what you mean, though, there are plenty of farming practices that would be more appropriate in a vegan society. The reason we don't farm like that now is that we don't have a vegan society and all those lives lost are seen as ethically irrelevant.

Plenty of arguments for veganism are rock solid. You'll find terrible arguments just as you do with everything else, but the bad arguments don't negate the good ones. Just make sure you fully understand arguments before dismissing them.
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Jennik wrote:
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lagwin1980 wrote:
Also i think some of the arguments for Pro veg are not particularly well thought out.

Like that one about deforestation to grow grain for cattle, so remove the cattle and you still need the extra land to feed your mouth instead of the cows, and if you leave animals be how long is it going to be before they become pests because they are eating your grain/veg and you then start culling them as pests?


You may want to look deeper into those arguments. I posted a link to the vegan subreddit's FAQ earlier. It should have some reasonably in-depth explanations of those arguments, or at least some links to them. I'll touch on some basics, though.

Eating cows is massively less efficient than simply eating the grain ourselves. You lose something like 90% efficiency by eating cows who eat wheat instead of simply eating wheat. There's also the issue of water usage, since a major percentage of water is used in animal agriculture. If everyone was vegan, among other benefits, we'd need significantly less farmland than we currently do.

I'm also not sure what you mean with the last bit you said. Regardless of what you mean, though, there are plenty of farming practices that would be more appropriate in a vegan society. The reason we don't farm like that now is that we don't have a vegan society and all those lives lost are seen as ethically irrelevant.

Plenty of arguments for veganism are rock solid. You'll find terrible arguments just as you do with everything else, but the bad arguments don't negate the good ones. Just make sure you fully understand arguments before dismissing them.


This is correct. Each step in the food chain has a significant amount of waste. If we could somehow become non-wasteful perfectly photosynthetic beings, iirc ~2 sq meters exposed to the sun would sustain all of our biological energy needs.

Then again, the way people increasingly vegetate in front of their electronic devices, veganism could be approaching cannibalism ;-0

PoE Origins - Piety's story http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2081910
I've been a vegetarian for 18 years, I could not be a vegan as I consider cheese to be a food group unto itself.
~ Adapt, Improvise and Overcome
I'm going to engineer a vegetable that says ouch and cries.


PS. GL retaining muscle mass on a vegan diet. If you lift it's really expensive to maintain a high protein vegan diet with sufficient amino acids, especially if you want to avoid consuming mass quantities of phytoestrogens.

PPS. Parents who put newborn babies on vegan diets should be charged with child abuse. RIP brain development.
Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client.
Last edited by Vhlad on Jun 7, 2016, 12:03:15 AM
You won't get no glory on that side of the hole.
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Vhlad wrote:
I'm going to engineer a vegetable that says ouch and cries.


PS. GL retaining muscle mass on a vegan diet. If you lift it's really expensive to maintain a high protein vegan diet with sufficient amino acids, especially if you want to avoid consuming mass quantities of phytoestrogens.

PPS. Parents who put newborn babies on vegan diets should be charged with child abuse. RIP brain development.


For the vegetable, if you engineer a sentient one (and good luck with that!), vegans will not eat it. Current vegetables are not sentient, though. A non-sentient vegetable making noises is not ethically relevant to vegans. I have no idea what you were getting at here, but I think I covered the most likely bases.

Google "vegan body builders." You could also go with MMA fighters, boxers, swimmers, or whatever else. There are plenty out there who will easily demonstrate your wrongness. Also look into those phytoestrogens. They're not scary. There's a tremendous amount of misinformation out there, and for people who hate the concept of veganism, it's incredibly easy to believe the dumb nonsense simply because it's anti-vegan. Practice healthy skepticism.

There's nothing wrong with putting babies on vegan diets. The major dietary associations agree with this. You may be thinking about morons who only give a baby apple juice or who cover it in mud to avoid going to a doctor. That's not veganism killing babies. That's idiocy killing babies. Non-vegan idiots kill their babies every single day, but if I concluded based on those dead babies that non-veganism is unhealthy for babies, I'd look like an idiot.

Don't bash something you clearly don't understand in the slightest.
Last edited by Jennik on Jun 7, 2016, 11:52:19 AM
I was gonna say our teeth are no longer viable for meat as a matter of fact we are meant to eat natural soft things. Corn starch, sugar... Our teeth can't handle it.

We cook because it makes food easier to eat and more sanitary. We've have almost completely lost our ability to digest raw foods. Sodas etc... Your body adapts.

Our intelligence blinds us from common sense.

"Another... Solwitch thread." AST
Current Games: :::City Skylines:::Elite Dangerous::: Division 2

"...our most seemingly ironclad beliefs about our own agency and conscious experience can be dead wrong." -Adam Bear
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Google "vegan body builders." You could also go with MMA fighters, boxers, swimmers, or whatever else. There are plenty out there who will easily demonstrate your wrongness.

No, it doesn't, because I said it was really expensive, especially if you want to do it while avoiding excessively high amounts of phytoestrogens (many of the cheap vegan proteins are also really high in enzyme inhibitors that can cause problems with mineral & protein absorption, as well as other things that can cause thyroid & pancreas problems).

Yes, it's possible, but expensive to do if you want to stay healthy. If more people ate vegan it would actually get more expensive, because there are supply limitations on many products, due to where they can be cost effectively grown. There are also high water requirements for the end-user (for rinsing off pesticides, sometimes even sanitizing via bleach soaking).

Vegans like to pretend to have a morally superior diet but it's blind and baseless ideology. Many of the imported vegetables and fruits that vegans enjoy decimate the food security and groundwater reserves of the poorer nations that grow them, and are farmed by people paid so little with so few options it's effectively slave labour. You have poor populations that used to depend on quinoa as a staple food being unable to afford it now, due to trade policy + NA/EU demand rising the price above even cheap local meats, and they're getting fat eating cheap imports like corn and soy (this is just one example, no need to harp on it).

Bottom line is, in NA you need to be well off to enjoy a healthy vegan lifestyle. And you need to have a lot of time to clean and prepare meals (or have someone do it for you). And you need to be well educated + have access to reliable medical care, especially if you want to raise children vegan, because you need to monitor things like B12.

Trying to encourage the masses to go vegan would be humorously disastrous if ya'll succeeded. There are so many studies and articles where vegans are deficient in things or where children have impaired brain or growth development because they were not getting sufficient fats, calories, or fortified foods/supplements. The education is just not there. This is a high maintenance lifestyle and people who think it's cost effective are delusional. Heck, if it was actually economically efficient the free market would head there. The $ will always be more powerful than PETA nutjobs on a crusade.
Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client.
When you're faced with a Gish Gallop, the best thing to do is usually just to turn around and go home. For anyone reading along at home, though, please know that he's just spouting loads of nonsense here. Research any topic you're interested in. Practice healthy skepticism, not blind denial. Don't let your hatred of an ideology prevent you from having an accurate understanding of reality.

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