How to deal with conversion - nerf poison, add chaos resist mobs and chaos resist map mods

The ONLY idea behind chaos damage builds was to go around reflect

the problem with chaos builds is that poison stacking - it does way too much damage and scales a lot with the more chaos dmg you have

Instead of nerfing Voltaxic and Consuming Dark, developers can do a lot of things:
>Nerf poison base overtime damage, limit maximum stacks of poison a creep can have
>add more chaos resist mobs
>add chaos resist map mods
>make some mobs immune to poison

Poison is the only mechanic that's "broken"

ty for your time and efforts devs and please consider all of this

hey, yeah, let's nerf poison for EVERYONE to try to put double-dipping in line. Again. (well, not really 'again'... last time's nerf to Fatal Toxins *only* affected non-abusive users).


Sounds like a great balance philosophy, ignoring collateral damage because of an inability to deduce the real issue.

"

Shppy wrote:

hey, yeah, let's nerf poison for EVERYONE to try to put double-dipping in line. Again. (well, not really 'again'... last time's nerf to Fatal Toxins *only* affected non-abusive users).


Sounds like a great balance philosophy, ignoring collateral damage because of an inability to deduce the real issue.

nerfing the numeral values of conversion is a better solution?
maps need chaos res mods
almost all poison builds are abusive so you wanna keep your broken poison but we have to take the conversion nerf?

"

chocolatemilch wrote:

nerfing the numeral values of conversion is a better solution?
maps need chaos res mods
almost all poison builds are abusive so you wanna keep your broken poison but we have to take the conversion nerf?

I don't wanna keep broken poison, i despise that bleed/ignite/poison can double-dip on anything besides physical/fire-ele/chaos damage (respectively), it makes them horribly biased against melees and in favor of skills with lots of potential delivery keywords.


Taking down chaos conversion is part of the battle; not being able to get elemental skills to fully convert means lower poison bases and less returns for trying to double-dip on chaos damage mods (cuz they won't scale all of your initial damage), while also diminishing some of the other excess benefits of converting to chaos.

The other necessary change is removing the ability to double-dip on delivery keywords (projectile, area, trap, etc) by disallowing those scalings from affecting bleed/ignite/poison. This was hinted to be coming, although they've been silent about it in recent teasers and whatnot. Still should be on the way.


With those changes, poison (and ignite and bleed, once they're adjusted in response to losing the double-dipping they've been 'balanced' around) will be in a good spot, and will actually align with the stated philosophy they had for it when it was introduced. Poison will be a damage amp that, when not built for, will be weak and outdone by other choices, but with the proper specialization in the tree can exceed other choices by enough to make the investment worthwhile; it is currently roughly balanced like that for those that can't convert to chaos and/or double-dip on anything (though Fatal Toxins deserves its nerf undone). With these changes, that's how it will be for pretty much everyone.



On the other hand, your changes just cripple poison completely for those that can't/don't double-dip, hurt native chaos skills unjustly, and just generally repeat the mistakes that caused ignite and bleed to fall into the states they're in. It doesn't cure the problem, it's nothing more than a band-aid fix.

Poison and double-dipping is a completely red herring. For those that didn't see it, Mathil showed that a 6L pierce lightning arrow through frost wall just obliterates uber atziri.

Uber. Atziri.

Trivializes her to the point she can barely get a spell off.

The mobs that need poison to be dealt with you can count on one hand.

Map Voll, Core bosses (because fuck shavronne and her thorns), map daresso, and uber atziri, really.

Anything else, a phys build can just blast through, ditto some native chaos builds.

This whole non-legacy nerf to voltaxic was just a case of "lawlz people are stacking up voltaxics in expectation of them going legacy, we'll show them rofl rofl".

"

chocolatemilch wrote:

The ONLY idea behind chaos damage builds was to go around reflect

the problem with chaos builds is that poison stacking - it does way too much damage and scales a lot with the more chaos dmg you have

Instead of nerfing Voltaxic and Consuming Dark, developers can do a lot of things:
>Nerf poison base overtime damage, limit maximum stacks of poison a creep can have
>add more chaos resist mobs
>add chaos resist map mods
>make some mobs immune to poison

Poison is the only mechanic that's "broken"

ty for your time and efforts devs and please consider all of this

...and keep the reflect immunity so many of you enjoy? nope.

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

chocolatemilch wrote:

The ONLY idea behind chaos damage builds was to go around reflect

the problem with chaos builds is that poison stacking - it does way too much damage and scales a lot with the more chaos dmg you have

Instead of nerfing Voltaxic and Consuming Dark, developers can do a lot of things:
>Nerf poison base overtime damage, limit maximum stacks of poison a creep can have
>add more chaos resist mobs
>add chaos resist map mods
>make some mobs immune to poison

Poison is the only mechanic that's "broken"

ty for your time and efforts devs and please consider all of this

...and keep the reflect immunity so many of you enjoy? nope.

[Removed by Support]

Reflect should have gone the way of the old EB/MoM/AA/CoD and Ondar's Guile defenses. It was a mechanic designed to promote a defensive build.

Why the hell is it still here when just about every defense has been raped time and again?

Not to mention that anytime someone manages to find a way around reflect, GGG comes and quickly nerfs that.

It's the single dumbest mechanic I've ever seen in an ARPG. Might as well just change it to "monsters are immune to physical/elemental damage", ala Diablo 2. At least it'd allow certain builds to play certain maps instead of rerolling because of one mod.

this is a mechanic that FORCES people to think about their characters a bit more than 'how to stack more dps'. sadly Vaal Pact bypasses it all but there is hope that some day they will remove it as well


as for the defences - all these work perfectly well even today. you simply want a binary 'im unvulnerable' type of defences and these are dumb and poe already moved away from them

"

sidtherat wrote:

this is a mechanic that FORCES people to think about their characters a bit more than 'how to stack more dps'. sadly Vaal Pact bypasses it all but there is hope that some day they will remove it as well


as for the defences - all these work perfectly well even today. you simply want a binary 'im unvulnerable' type of defences and these are dumb and poe already moved away from them

[Removed by support]

"Hopefully they remove vaal pact because it goes a long way in trivializing reflect."

[Removed by support]

Reflect meant to be a DPS check? No, it's an instant kill nowadays, even WITH vaal pact, because 18% is far greater than anything besides what a vessel of vinktar offers.