Which summoner offended GGG?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Well, if you're taking A1N, there is no significant passive or gear commitment at that point, so the game should assume you're supplementing your Zombies with some self-cast. You'd be a fool not to.

Well, we're assuming that people want to play a summoner from the get-go, that's what the thread is about. You have the same parts in a1n as in a1m but the machinery just isn't working as well.

Oh, I'm fairly sure the ratio of zombie health to monster health is very similar in both instances, and that's the whole problem. That's also the reason specters suck before mid cruel, the ratio of monster health to monster damage changes too much over the course of the game.

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MadRabbitPoE wrote:

I've been running a SRS/Spectre/Zombie build with Scion and it's been great so far, except for those goddamn boxes.

It's mostly the spectres. As a Scion, without the 100% HP buff on spectres in Witch, they have been constantly dying to the boxes in chokepoints. My zombies and earth elemental that are gemmed with life and resistance rarely ever die, but the spectres which are gemmed offensively get wiped out a lot.

I eventually dealt with it by taking life flask passives and spamming double animation potion to keep them up while constantly using Convocation to reposition. But they still die from time to time and then I get to pull my hair out as I try to hunt down monsters worth turning into spectres. If I gem them to be tanky, then it defeats the entire purpose of using them. If I gem them to be offensive, then they are badass and survive just fine up until I encounter a box.

Have the same issue with SRS to some extent. They just get wiped out by the massive AOE shotgun spam, doing a fraction of their total damage.

I haven't found a box I can't beat, because with SRS to fall back on, you eventually win by attrition. But losing all your spectres is just a rage inducing experience, because of how shitty the QoL is on that skill.

Haaa I guess spectres have it even worse than Animate Weapon, which is what I've been playing. But it still works exactly as you said: For all content that isn't boxes, my weapons don't die and clear quickly. But every time I run into a Perandus box, all my weapons die and I have to spam SRS to get past. I've started using a Quartz flask just so I can run through boxes and then convocation on the other side if I run into one.

Watching 40 weapons melt in a matter of seconds to 20 mobs that all use high-damage AoE skills FEELS like bad design. If the boxes didn't use AoE skills there would be no problem, and I'm not sure why they have to be AoE, since it makes no difference at all to any character that isn't a summoner while it just drives summoners into the ground.

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raics wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Well, if you're taking A1N, there is no significant passive or gear commitment at that point, so the game should assume you're supplementing your Zombies with some self-cast. You'd be a fool not to.

Well, we're assuming that people want to play a summoner from the get-go, that's what the thread is about. You have the same parts in a1n as in a1m but the machinery just isn't working as well.

Oh, I'm fairly sure the ratio of zombie health to monster health is very similar in both instances, and that's the whole problem. That's also the reason specters suck before mid cruel, the ratio of monster health to monster damage changes too much over the course of the game.

not 100% true. zombies can easily work low level, the thing you need to do for that to work however is get multiple ways to heal them.

if you are a summoner , you need to be using the rejuvenation totem pretty much as soon as you can and ideally you need animation flasks.


Ill reiterate the viability of early game summons has nothing to do with their max health and everything to do with their inability to replenish said hp on their own.

even in late game , if you dont have leech and life regen on your summons they might as well be dead already.

sustainability is more important than raw hp. and raw hp is really only somthing you should go after because it also happens to boost the sustainability via % base regen mods like vitality the passive tree, shapers seed , femurs of the saints and skull head



following this , if you really want early game self sustaining zombies , that should probably take the form of a flat life regen that suffers diminishing returns as the zombie levels

something like 5 - 10 hp/s at level 1 that only goes up to say 100 hp/s at level 20 so that it doesnt really keep up with over all hp pool of zombies and allows for supplemental mechanics to take over.. like the ones i listed above

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

Ill reiterate the viability of early game summons has nothing to do with their max health and everything to do with their inability to replenish said hp on their own.

Yeah, well, they kinda need both, most ways to regen a minion are percentage based. In endgame, their life pool is something like three times our own, and by the time we hit end of act two they sure as hell don't have 2k life, or 1k at Brutus.

And I got no idea why, hard to imagine devs considering Zombies an important factor in racing.

Now, it normally isn't a huge problem as early game monsters don't do the same amount of damage relative to our life pools as their endgame counterparts. However, when we have a league mechanic like perandus mobs that scales more aggressively from the get-go it starts being a problem.

nah, they don’t need both in early, game . normal difficulty doesn’t contain anything that can really one shot the player , thus it can be argued that nothing should be able to one shot zombies as they at the very least maintain a hp pool close to that of the summoner .

I actually made several end game builds based around this concept that you could make zombies tanky so long as you focused on mitigation and replenishment over raw hp pool.

its how i got 7.5 k hp zombies to be atziri viable , which was really really hard to pull off before the minion hp buffs and boss damage to minion adjustments.


The fundamental difference between the players and the zombies in early game is the fact that when a player gets hit for half their hp they can press a button or a use a skill that brings their hp bar back up to 100% in a few seconds.


there are no % base heals for minion in early game. not unless we use unique items with implicit properties , go for specific passives or use vitality.


so again high hp pool in early game afford you nothing save for maybe taking one extra hit before the zombie dies

But if you get animation flasks and the rejuvenation totem you can realistically mimic that 50% hp gain in a few seconds viability afforded to the player.

unfortunately getting either a rejuvenation totem or properly rolled animation flasks is a cumbersome process , i dont think the witch or scion get access to the rejuvenation totem since for some stupid reason it is set as a pure strength totem (despite it being COMPLETELY WORTHLESS FOR STRENGTH BASED BUILDS BECAUSE OF ITS SHIT LOW STATIC LIFE RATE). but it is greate for minion builds in the early game.

and rolling flasks is always a crap shoot. there needs to be a crafting recipe for it , maybe one which involves using all those disposable minion gems