Flaskfinder

The danger is getting hopes too high - If something seems apparently op, its likely not going to be in that state on release date. GGG is smart enough to know giving players too much free power will be detrimental in the long run but perhaps not in the short run.

Ascendantcy has done something PoE has stopped doing since the days of absurdly blatantly overpowered uniques like shavs and soultaker and more recently skyforth - make players supremely excited.

At best we get 3 months of path of diablo 3 before GGG nerfs the classes in line with the rest of the game which is what I would like to happen as opposed to a symmetrical nerf to passive/existing for every buff gained from the new classes.

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Nephalim wrote:

Ascendantcy has done something PoE has stopped doing since the days of absurdly blatantly overpowered uniques like shavs and soultaker and more recently skyforth - make players supremely excited.

All three of those things were massive mistakes that took ages to resolve (or they're still yet to fix them). There's nothing exciting about a Win Button, and a Win Button "balanced by rarity" is even less exciting.

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Obviously we're playing the game in different ways, so I'll make my case:

Ascendancy is a huge opportunity for them to add tons of player choice. If they fuck it up and release obvious choices that make all the others obsolete, they will have added nothing meaningful other than lore and the Labyrinth after X months of work. If they're generating Y months of new content in X months of work (Y < X), then they get behind and the game gets stale.

The dream as far as I understand it is that someone should think up a character concept and let each prestige class put a spin on it. Start with something like "an LA archer" and see what a Juggernaut version would look like, what a Gladiator version would look like, see what a Pathfinder version would look like, and so on down the list. Each one does some really cool, powerful shit, and they balance each other out by doing different powerful shit.

Some of those choices will be useless for the build (say, Blocking-related prestige classes while holding a bow), but several of them should all be viable in their own way. Two different versions of the "same build" but with different prestige classes adds a ton of diversity and replayability to the game.

The nightmare, in contrast, is a single Ascendancy class which is best for every build. Generically strong things that every build has access to is dangerous design category, and Flasks certainly have that opportunity. If they're careless, they'll generate something that destroys all choice.

In that scenario, there's no point in rolling more than one character. You just make your one god character and can trivially change equipment and gems to play every character in one sitting. Min-maxing halts, the Win Button is achieved, and the only reason to make other characters is because you enjoy playing suboptimal things.

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And yeah, of course they can fuck it up and then fix it 3 months later. They've fucked it up many times before and this community is extremely patient and understanding of a games company on their first (extremely ambitious) product. The point is that they should be able to predict at least some of the obvious problems and avoid having to screw up the first league.

Since lots of other stuff can change (on the tree, on gear, on gems) in 2.2, I am definitely more hopeful that GGG can do it well than I am worried that they'll do it wrong.

I'm not really talking about build diversity. I'm talking about how badly their going to nerf players in order to accommodate for these classes. GGG has a habit of overnerfing.

I have no doubt in my mind these classes will reinvigorate the game and open up countless new builds and build variations.

Just look at how many classes can use LA now:

3 ranger classes
1 marauder class
1 shadow class

likely more to be revealed. before you went marauder/duelist/shadow/ranger and it made little difference.

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3 ranger classes
1 marauder class
2 shadow classes
2 duelist classes
1 witch class

FTFY

Saboteur can get Blinding Assault, Born in Shadow and Explosives Expert. LA with GMP and Chain is ideal for maximizing Blind chance per attack; probably best paired with Blast Rain for single target. Not good with Voltaxic though.

Champion can go Unstoppable Hero, Fortitude and either FtSLtF or Inspirational; permanent Fortify, works with elemental, physical or chaos scaling.

Pretty much everything Slayer works, except Impact. The bonuses are all "Damage with Two-Handed Weapons" so any form of scaling works fine. The leech isn't tied to physical damage, either.

Necromancer is only good with Lightning Arrow in the niche case of Null's Inclination. Still, that is a build, and Necromancer is ideally suited for it. Offerings are Minion skills, so Null's can trigger them automatically.

Still, after a couple months the community will probably figure out what works best and whittle down that list.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Ceryneian wrote:

Let's be real guys - most people on this thread just saw "Master Surgeon" and started screaming OP.

The only thing which confuses me is why you aren't.

Because it is not, think about it. If I am just using a Taste of Hate flask and a Atziri flask to buff my damage occassionally why would I restrict myself to this class? And spend 4 points just to get Master Surgeon? I don't need high uptime for those flasks.

Again, its the opportunity cost = you are getting high-uptime for some flasks you hardly use, instead of more powerful upgrades from a different sub-class.

If you are using Rumi's + VofV + Taste of Hate / CElixir, and NEED them for your build then it is a different story and this class makes sense.

Now how many builds are like this? VofV is a single flask and can cost more than most people's ENTIRE gear set.

This Pathfinder class is so niche that despite all you guys screaming OP, I doubt many people will even be using this sub-class.

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pneuma wrote:

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Obviously we're playing the game in different ways, so I'll make my case:

Ascendancy is a huge opportunity for them to add tons of player choice. If they fuck it up and release obvious choices that make all the others obsolete, they will have added nothing meaningful other than lore and the Labyrinth after X months of work.

**If** the new Ascendancy classes are so powerful that GGG needs to downsize everything else, then it would destroy build choice even more. It is tough to speculate when we don't know what changes or challenges GGG has prepared.

Not all players are about the meta or what's OP. Some just enjoy certain build styles or a variety of builds whether they are the most efficient or not. When those builds go from second tier, to third tier and keep getting whacked down in the name of balance ...

That is when GGG has lost its focus, IMO, and will lose a large chunk of their permanent player base.

For the top skill tier of players with lots of time, it really doesn't matter what GGG does to "balance" out skills. They will continue adapting and blasting through the game. It's inevitable when you have a very large group of intelligent players working playing against a game with a fixed set of rules on a non Turing intelligence.

If the monster and game AI, was a bona fide Turing device, then it would be a different story.

I'm not overly worried about the new Ascendancy skill 'perks'. I am confidant that whether at initial release, or in an adjustment patch, GGG will have new more challenging content where the Ascendant skills can shine without it being a cake walk.

As for older areas are more easy for those completing ascendancy - that is a natural thing. It is like a player who has completed Merciless Act IV, no longer finding Act II Cruel challenging.

Players that intentionally set out to make the game as easy as it can be for themselves, and then complain about how easy the game is ...

Then the PEBKAC not at GGG's 'balancing' end.

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Ceryneian wrote:

This Pathfinder class is so niche that despite all you guys screaming OP, I doubt many people will even be using this sub-class.

I have a PA ranger that I've played whether PA was a good skill or a ho-hum lousy skill. As long as that character can manage some kind of low or mid level mapping with PA, I'll keep playing her. She doesn't use any of that six link OP mumbo jumbo, or any poison support gems.

Just a Lioneye's bow and this for PA.

The Herbalist node looks like it would fit her theme though. I don't really care if it's a big boost or not, so long as the basic poison arrow (CA still means California to me) mechanism doesn't get nerfed down into uselessness.

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DalaiLama wrote:

**If** the new Ascendancy classes are so powerful that GGG needs to downsize everything else, then it would destroy build choice even more.

/reads this
/reads today manifesto
/reads this
/reads today manifesto
/reads this
/reads today manifesto
...

Well looking at the Manifesto, the changes make Pathfinder even stronger. I suspect they are nerfing / removing the Alchemist nodes.

I think it's all about options.

There is never a perfect balance to classes, as the same as skills and passive and uniques. What GGG need to do is "semi-balance" them. It 's normal that some options is stronger. As long as they are only "a bit" not "a lot" stronger, and not making most of the people choosing/not choosing an option, it's okay. (hi, poor duelist)

Chance to gain charges to flask on crit is strong, but offering yourself, ignoring resistance, perma fortify, explosive kill, increasing base crit is strong too.

As long as the ideas are great, we are happy with that. All the leftover is number, which can be changed easily, but hard to balance. If 20% is too much, get it to 10%. (Off course no one know whether GGG think is it too op or not. At least I don't think it's too op.)

GGG already announces that they will "fix" the existing flask. They can easily nerf the strong flask by letting them consuming more charges. In fact, PathFinder is a class that encourage/limit players to use unique flasks. You may love it(flask OP), or hate it(pressing flask is so annoying). It's all about play styles.

For me, the problem of pathfinder is not whether "Master Surgeon" is OP. It is pathfinder is way too high end. You need to get those expensive unique flasks while still having your life flasks to make it useful. Meanwhile, we can simply pick assassin to do a 95% crit canon, slayer for leeching machine, champion for perma fortify on range, deadeye for free chain and far shot, even inquisitor for ignoring ele resist, without investing ex in those flasks. Although flask is great, not much people have the currency to buy, or patient to use those flask.

And you know, GGG can simply put a cooldown/limit per hit on "Master Surgeon".