Problem with the balance thread..

The salt is real, lol. They should turn the drama into a sitcom.

Every nerd is his own king.

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lapiz wrote:

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MullaXul wrote:

So I have unyielding, his multiplier is now a 420% instead of 500%. He's still doing around 21,000 damage. With both the belt and passive it's around 300% or 15,000 damage. So by now he's close to my real damage output per hit. Taking these passives is literally changing nothing in the grand scheme of things.

You can't make this shit up.

I feel like this sums up the ignorance shown everywhere in the posts.. First of all your math is a bit off but if we look past that, there's clearly a huge effect which you disregard as "nothing". You just reduced the incoming damage by a crazy amount yet you dont see it as a meaningful thing.

Against a 650% crit multi char (a good bow char?) the belt+passive actually reduce damage by 43%. 43% less damage taken. Now combine enfeeble to this (people should try blasphemy, its actually ridiculously good in pvp) and the critter deals basically the damage of RT with the exception he can miss and almost never crit.

Also, not once have I ever seen you or anyone distinguish spell crits and attack based crits properly. Attack crits can be countered ridiculously hard. Spell crits can be countered only quite hard. A simple cwdt blind setup destroys attack crit builds.

There are also other ways to reduce damage if you bother to look outside of the box. Getting rid of that kaoms and using a lightning coil does wonders against pure physical builds. RT builds can even use a redblade helmet on top of that possibly. Arctic armour is amazing as well.

Compared to their crit counterparts, RT attack builds are actually good if built properly. You have so much room for defences when u dont have to worry about crit stats, which then allows you to use funny stuff like deceiver, coil, talismans, redblades, chaos res etc. Using a 1 chaos weapon and not taking advantage of everything available doesnt really help when you have an unfavourable matchup to begin with.

1h RT melee is actually a thing believe it or not. Kinda weird how no one has a char like that yet

The math isn't off. I said "around", I wasn't looking to give exact figures down to the very last decimal. It is roughly 42-43% reduction with both and that's exactly what I wrote as a result. Still doesn't change that testing proves otherwise hit per hit. Dying 2hits on average up to 2.5 or 3 hits is still not what I call a "hard counter" when it takes 2h RT with a mirrored 700+ dps weapon 2-5x this.

Blind, enfeeble...band aids and often not even a factor. Blind is looking to be useless come Ascendancy and blind itself is countered by actual investments into accuracy and poachers mark. A retard crit user has neither while someone smart would be packing both. I've addressed the difference between attack based crit and spell crit 100x over you just seemed to miss it. Don't get your pussy in such a twist, you aren't telling me anything I don't know. When I die consistently with both the belt and passive + acrobatics and 9k life in -3 hits, while not being shocked by traps,bow attacks,spells it is what it is. I quit bothering after I saw it changed little. Nothing has changed mechanically to change the results I experienced and currently I'm still using the same set up just minus the belt...it is what it is.

You're telling me there is more then a marginal difference using LC over Kaom's versus a physical build? You lose so much life in the trade that the added mitigation is hardly offset.

All I see is little bitches wanting crit to remain the way it is with a laundry list of excuses instead of wanting some actual diversity in PvP. Also ironic how hard people bitch and moan about EA but are apparently ok with crit damage output. I've seen you duel man, you need PvP the way it is because if it was remotely about movement/skill you'd be up shits creek without a paddle.

I also never said 1h rt builds were extinct. I've also said many many times 1h rt/shield builds > 2h builds in more match ups thus making them more viable over all in PvP.

At this stage I'm asking myself why you aren't 1h/2h RT melee then if it's so bad ass? Why are you crit dagger or some bow build instead. I've had crit dagger,crit bow, rt bow, trappers, casters so how many RT 1h/2h melee have you had and went anywhere with in PvP? Your boy AhFack dies nearly instantly to the same exact things I or any other 2h does so it can't just be me.

I'll be waiting to watch you dominate the scene with your hodge podge of low level uniques, LC, war bands helmets outfitted 2h build. Name it LapizOwnerOfWorlds or something to really get the emphasis across how bad ass it'll be.

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MullaXul wrote:

The math isn't off. I said "around", I wasn't looking to give exact figures down to the very last decimal. It is roughly 42-43% reduction with both and that's exactly what I wrote as a result. Still doesn't change that testing proves otherwise hit per hit. Dying 2hits on average up to 2.5 or 3 hits is still not what I call a "hard counter" when it takes 2h RT with a mirrored 700+ dps weapon 2-5x this.

Blind, enfeeble...band aids and often not even a factor. Blind is looking to be useless come Ascendancy and blind itself is countered by actual investments into accuracy and poachers mark. A retard crit user has neither while someone smart would be packing both. I've addressed the difference between attack based crit and spell crit 100x over you just seemed to miss it. Don't get your pussy in such a twist, you aren't telling me anything I don't know. When I die consistently with both the belt and passive + acrobatics and 9k life in -3 hits, while not being shocked by traps,bow attacks,spells it is what it is. I quit bothering after I saw it changed little. Nothing has changed mechanically to change the results I experienced and currently I'm still using the same set up just minus the belt...it is what it is.

You're telling me there is more then a marginal difference using LC over Kaom's versus a physical build? You lose so much life in the trade that the added mitigation is hardly offset.

All I see is little bitches wanting crit to remain the way it is with a laundry list of excuses instead of wanting some actual diversity in PvP. Also ironic how hard people bitch and moan about EA but are apparently ok with crit damage output. I've seen you duel man, you need PvP the way it is because if it was remotely about movement/skill you'd be up shits creek without a paddle.

I also never said 1h rt builds were extinct. I've also said many many times 1h rt/shield builds > 2h builds in more match ups thus making them more viable over all in PvP.

At this stage I'm asking myself why you aren't 1h/2h RT melee then if it's so bad ass? Why are you crit dagger or some bow build instead. I've had crit dagger,crit bow, rt bow, trappers, casters so how many RT 1h/2h melee have you had and went anywhere with in PvP? Your boy AhFack dies nearly instantly to the same exact things I or any other 2h does so it can't just be me.

I'll be making some sort of ghetto 1h RT in the near future I believe! Dont worry.

For crit builds, there's only 1 counter to blind at the moment and thats the Dark Seer in offhand, which isnt exactly the offhand you want as a dual wield user. In ascendancy sure there will be at least 1 more way through the new class, which is a rather huge sacrifice in itself when you compare it to what else you could get instead.

Poacher's mark is a ridiculously horrible curse compared to TC/enfeeble/vulnerability. Just utter and complete trash. Also it does almost nothing if enemy uses blind.

I actually can't believe you are trying to argue that blind is a mere "bandaid". You do realise if you have 95% chance to crit, 95% chance to hit through the enemy evasion AND you are blinded, your true chance to crit is supposed to be bit over 21%. The damage reduction is ridiculous if you can already survive 2-3 crits, which means the damage is probably "pottable", with your endless avenger life flasks.

Coincidentally you didn't even mention the avenger's mod.. I suggest you try them!

Have avengers, have 20/20 blind,smoke mine, enfeeble. Poachers provides flask charges, lgoh/mgoh and a counter to reduced accuracy. I've blinded + enfeebled people since day 1, a hit is going to slip through and when it does it could be the only one required to kill you even if you're full life.

It's funny how you think you're like 10 steps ahead of me when I'm the mother fucker that lit the fire under peoples asses in HLD to do more then just stand there, with 1 main hand throwing shit at one another. I started PvPing with offhand bows, tons of movement, plethora of counters in my inventory and now it's the norm. I'd go as far as to say anyone who came from Diablo2 and was competitive started with the same exact mind set I did they just didn't stick to PvP or quit the game because of how discouraging it is to die so fast to such little effort. In beta HLD was nothing but flickering to one another and holding attack, or standing there with RF/Tempest spraying EK because it's all they needed to beat one another because they all sucked. Everyone caught up and even without broken crap as a crutch they are 100x better then they used to be.


I do get it, meta changes and what worked in the past doesn't always have staying power. I'm not naive enough to think I can get the same results without putting work back into my build and re-assessing game changes. Consider all of this done and still the bottom line is...when it's all said and done 2h rt damage is low in comparison, 2h rt hp pools lose to crit in 2-3 hits. Doesn't matter what you wear, what your tree looks like. Why 1h rt? Because like I said years ago, it has better match up numbers then 2h thanks to a shield even at the expense of a lower life pool and regen. That's why you're going 1h instead of 2h.

Edit: Just have to add since you're using curses as an example. Crit users do have them too, when you enfeeble RT they do significantly less damage. When you use assassins mark you're nearly offsetting enfeeble, when you use poachers you're nearly offsetting blind.

You speak of crit damage after they are mitigated through curses/belt/passives...how they are on par with RT then. You failed to factor in their still potent DoT and the fact crit multiplies every source of damage. How many sources of damage does a RT melee generally have? No more then a main attack and often a already heavily penalized counter gem(s) set up that sucks in PvP. How many sources of damage does a caster have? Several. Bower and dagger have DoTs at significantly higher values, traps, main attacks and a counter gem on a crit dagger heavily out dps's one on a RT build. You'll see all of this when you make your ghetto RT build.

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MullaXul wrote:

Have avengers, have 20/20 blind,smoke mine, enfeeble. Poachers provides flask charges, lgoh/mgoh and a counter to reduced accuracy. I've blinded + enfeebled people since day 1, a hit is going to slip through and when it does it could be the only one required to kill you even if you're full life.

It's funny how you think you're like 10 steps ahead of me when I'm the mother fucker that lit the fire under peoples asses in HLD to do more then just stand there, with 1 main hand throwing shit at one another. I started PvPing with offhand bows, tons of movement, plethora of counters in my inventory and now it's the norm. I'd go as far as to say anyone who came from Diablo2 and was competitive started with the same exact mind set I did they just didn't stick to PvP or quit the game because of how discouraging it is to die so fast to such little effort. In beta HLD was nothing but flickering to one another and holding attack, or standing there with RF/Tempest spraying EK because it's all they needed to beat one another because they all sucked. Everyone caught up and even without broken crap as a crutch they are 100x better then they used to be.


I do get it, meta changes and what worked in the past doesn't always have staying power. I'm not naive enough to think I can get the same results without putting work back into my build and re-assessing game changes. Consider all of this done and still the bottom line is...when it's all said and done 2h rt damage is low in comparison, 2h rt hp pools lose to crit in 2-3 hits. Doesn't matter what you wear, what your tree looks like. Why 1h rt? Because like I said years ago, it has better match up numbers then 2h thanks to a shield even at the expense of a lower life pool and regen. That's why you're going 1h instead of 2h.

I merely disagree with some of your opinions. You have some good things in your balance post as well. As a side note I dislike the way you tend to shrug off completely valid arguments by calling them pussy twisters and what not. Then comes the diablo 2 rant which is followed by the good old 2hander rant. Try keeping your pants on for once.

No rants Lapiz. Was merely saying those that PvPed in games prior to this one competitively had a pretty good head start if they were to try and apply it here. Those that started in beta with that mind set, laid the ground work for PvP now...not considering balance problems but general approach and common meta directions. I don't mean it was all me, because it wasn't but that's how it all went down.

You building that melee now or when Ascendancy drops and may have juicy 1h/shield buffs like block applied 100% toward spells etc..? When your points could have weight if you can prove me wrong or when it literally wont matter because you'll be playing the soon to be flavor of the month 1h/shield meta?

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MullaXul wrote:

No rants Lapiz. Was merely saying those that PvPed in games prior to this one competitively had a pretty good head start if they were to try and apply it here. Those that started in beta with that mind set, laid the ground work for PvP now...not considering balance problems but general approach and common meta directions. I don't mean it was all me, because it wasn't but that's how it all went down.

You building that melee now or when Ascendancy drops and may have juicy 1h/shield buffs like block applied 100% toward spells etc..? When your points could have weight if you can prove me wrong or when it literally wont matter because you'll be playing the soon to be flavor of the month 1h/shield meta?

Shield is most likely not the way to do it.. You wont have enough damage

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hauntworld1 wrote:

IMO, disable rumi's concoction flask in pvp. It wouldnt hurt existing matchups very much, but would decrease by a lot the BS'ness of aegis builds, maybe even limiting the amount of armour that you can have in pvp would be a good start to balance these out.

I see the problem is much more the aegis, than Rumi, because you cant make a rounded build heavily relying on Rumi. Since Aegis is already on the defensive side, that build wont be able to kill you if you run while their Rumi runs out.

Rumi can be more problematic if it's used in a full dps build to cover the missing defenses. IMO it's short duration fits the build's playstyle to finish off the opponent quickly.

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Márkusz wrote:

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hauntworld1 wrote:

IMO, disable rumi's concoction flask in pvp. It wouldnt hurt existing matchups very much, but would decrease by a lot the BS'ness of aegis builds, maybe even limiting the amount of armour that you can have in pvp would be a good start to balance these out.

I see the problem is much more the aegis, than Rumi, because you cant make a rounded build heavily relying on Rumi. Since Aegis is already on the defensive side, that build wont be able to kill you if you run while their Rumi runs out.

Rumi can be more problematic if it's used in a full dps build to cover the missing defenses. IMO it's short duration fits the build's playstyle to finish off the opponent quickly.

Thing is these builds generally have 2 even 3 of these and that is about 6 charges to use and they can be really critical in certain situations. Killing an immortal build is often not a 1 hit task, you need multiples and these guys pop it when they took some damage to stop you from continuing, that is how rumi should be used with these and that is why its op paired with aegis. Now use 3 life flasks with recharge on crit taken, dispel curse or granites if youre ES and they are way too hard to kill.

Aegis is the problem i agree, but rumi and the amount of armour you get from granites makes it 20 times worst. We all know they wont remove leg gear from pvp, so we need another way to deal with the problem around other items or armour cap.