Put the Crafting back into Crafting. Good RNG vs Bad RNG

One of the main reasons people play RPG games is to start with a weak character and gradually, over time, increase their characters power to eventually dominate the game.

The "Crafting" system as mentioned by others is really a "Gambling" system which can reward you with riches or reduce you to an orbless pauper at it's whim.

Most folks really like riches part, but the pauper part is not so great.

In fact many people have probably ragequit after spending great amounts of wealth trying to craft an item and failing.

So I am proposing a few changes to several orbs, mainly Jeweller and Fuses.

Changing the Mechanics of the Orbs to increase the number of sockets or links by 1 instead of randomly rolling a value. Chances of an increase would decrease for every existing socket/link and on failure the item would just remain the same.

Note that I am not proposing making it any easier to achieve 6 Sockets and 6 Links, just removing the condition where the player spends Orbs and ends up making their item WORSE after the attempt.

The player is still spending the same amount of Orbs but not making their character WORSE which means that the player would only increasing their characters power or leaving it the same, not moving backwards.

If for some reason the player wanted to reduce the number of links/sockets another recipe say 1 Fuse/Jeweller + 1 Scour could accomplish that.

If you wanted to retain the ability to win the lottery and gain untold riches the Craft could Crit giving the max links in a single attempt (like before) of course at the usual low odds.


Long Term Crafting
Give players the choice between instant gratification and using Master Vorici and paying 1500 fuses to immediately gain a 6 linked weapon OR give an alternate path.

The alternate path would be applying your fuses as before but having a Counter on the item that registered attempts.

If the unlucky crafter does not achieve a 6 Linked item by 1,500 Fuses then Award the 6L at the max fusing attempts.

This means that even though the Craft failed and didn't get an increase the player is at least 1/1500's closer to achieving the ultimate goal. A tiny minuscule step forward, but still a step forward.

It levels the playing field and saves the player from having awful luck and keeps an end goal in sight.

Psychologically it would make a difference as well by setting the goal post at some distant point as opposed to (in the players mind, after being so unlucky) never.

The Counter could be used to generate extra Value on the cost of the item as well. Because a 1499/1500 linked item would only need 1 more fuse to be a 6 Link, players could price it accordingly.

Now I realize that the Average number of attempts to 6L using the long method would be lower than Vorici's 1500 price, as 1500 would be the maximum and players could still achieve a 6L way earlier than 1,500 and I see 2 ways to deal with this.

Increase the Counter to some value higher than 1,500 to balance it out, initial Math suggests 3,000.

Or

Leave it at 1,500 because the player using Vorici's service were able to immediately use the item, and in the end its the same cost.


So basically it's putting a bottom end on the maximum number of Orbs required to give the really unlicky player some measure of Hope.

I agree with this.

Let me start off by saying: Jewelers and Fusings are not the best kind of RNG at present. It's not like, say, Exalts, where there is this one fully optimal result you're looking for and a nice collection of suboptimal ones, ranging from utter crap to actually still kind of decent. So picking on Jeweler/Fusing as a weak point in the crafting system is fair game in my book.

So yes, there is a problem. But do you have a solution?

"

RockGod wrote:

Changing the Mechanics of the Orbs to increase the number of sockets or links by 1 instead of randomly rolling a value. Chances of an increase would decrease for every existing socket/link and on failure the item would just remain the same.

Spoiler

Note that I am not proposing making it any easier to achieve 6 Sockets and 6 Links, just removing the condition where the player spends Orbs and ends up making their item WORSE after the attempt.

The player is still spending the same amount of Orbs but not making their character WORSE which means that the player would only increasing their characters power or leaving it the same, not moving backwards.

Bad idea.

In practice, your solution is boring. Let's imagine someone is trying to 6L their currently 5L chestpiece with 1000 Fusings, and although they do not know it yet they are doomed to fail. Under the current system, they break the 5L, get 4L many times, get 5L a small handful of times, and play this RNG minigame where they're deciding when to stop and weighing the risks. Under your suggestion, literally nothing happens for one thousand clicks.

So, to put things in the clearest terms possible, your suggestion sacrifices player engagement in its entirety in order to preserve a sense of progression. And while a sense of progression isn't a bad thing at all, it is nowhere near an end-all and be-all. Games should be about fun and meaningful choice first and foremost, with progression systems as a means to an end, providing choices with a reward (or penalty) which gives it meaning. You are putting the cart before the horse here.

"

RockGod wrote:

Long Term Crafting
Give players the choice between instant gratification and using Master Vorici and paying 1500 fuses to immediately gain a 6 linked weapon OR give an alternate path.

The alternate path would be applying your fuses as before but having a Counter on the item that registered attempts.

If the unlucky crafter does not achieve a 6 Linked item by 1,500 Fuses then Award the 6L at the max fusing attempts.

Spoiler

This means that even though the Craft failed and didn't get an increase the player is at least 1/1500's closer to achieving the ultimate goal. A tiny minuscule step forward, but still a step forward.

It levels the playing field and saves the player from having awful luck and keeps an end goal in sight.

Psychologically it would make a difference as well by setting the goal post at some distant point as opposed to (in the players mind, after being so unlucky) never.

The Counter could be used to generate extra Value on the cost of the item as well. Because a 1499/1500 linked item would only need 1 more fuse to be a 6 Link, players could price it accordingly.

Now I realize that the Average number of attempts to 6L using the long method would be lower than Vorici's 1500 price, as 1500 would be the maximum and players could still achieve a 6L way earlier than 1,500 and I see 2 ways to deal with this.

Increase the Counter to some value higher than 1,500 to balance it out, initial Math suggests 3,000.

Or

Leave it at 1,500 because the player using Vorici's service were able to immediately use the item, and in the end its the same cost.


So basically it's putting a bottom end on the maximum number of Orbs required to give the really unlicky player some measure of Hope.

This is a case of already having your mechanic, and refusing to be satisfied by it.

Don't like RNG? That's Kool and the Gang, just head on over to Vorici and spend your 1500 Fusings to get your 6L guaranteed. Sense of progression? It's there when you look in your stash and see those Fusings piling up, getting closer and closer to that 1500 threshold when you can finally buy your 6L. Everything you want, presumably, is right there.

The only reason I can think of for why this doesn't appease you is that your money burns a hole in your pocket; as soon as you get any currency, you want to spend instead of save. Well, that's the lottery ticket route. You can save your currency to buy what you want, or you can spend it as you earn it on lottery tickets. I don't feel sorry for you in the slightest if you cannot make the choice appropriate to your desires, when you've been given the opportunity.

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In conclusion, I feel what makes "good" or "bad" RNG is not how things are randomized, but what is randomized; or, in a game like this one when lots and lots of things are randomized, how those things are grouped. Jeweler and Fusing RNG feels bad because the only results are: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. The degree of variety in outcome is virtually nonexistent. Such a short list of possible outcomes is what puts devs in situations where their design decisions are the ones mentioned earlier in this post: destroy sense of progression almost entirely, or destroy meaningful choice in crafting almost entirely. Like I said earlier, the right choice is to retain meaningful choice, but the real question is: why even put oneself in situations where such shitty choices are the best options? I don't think there is any way to randomize the amount of links on an item in this game in a way which retains both meaningful choice and progression, the whole socket thing is just a weak mechanic for the strong idea GGG had for allowing active skills to be user-customizable in a multitude of ways.

"

RockGod wrote:

.

Most folks really like riches part, but the pauper part is not so great.

that's the key element here. people like to win but hate to lose. so when RNG is in their favor they think its the norm and when they lose they 'ragequit'.

and losing is meaningless if you don't actually lose something. losing has to be meaningful. otherwise it has no point besides a checkmark that your random generator is working 'properly'.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

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In conclusion, I feel what makes "good" or "bad" RNG is not how things are randomized, but what is randomized; or, in a game like this one when lots and lots of things are randomized, how those things are grouped. Jeweler and Fusing RNG feels bad because the only results are: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. The degree of variety in outcome is virtually nonexistent. Such a short list of possible outcomes is what puts devs in situations where their design decisions are the ones mentioned earlier in this post: destroy sense of progression almost entirely, or destroy meaningful choice in crafting almost entirely. Like I said earlier, the right choice is to retain meaningful choice, but the real question is: why even put oneself in situations where such shitty choices are the best options? I don't think there is any way to randomize the amount of links on an item in this game in a way which retains both meaningful choice and progression, the whole socket thing is just a weak mechanic for the strong idea GGG had for allowing active skills to be user-customizable in a multitude of ways.

I disagree- it appears that for most players, the 'variety of outcome' is strictly binary, because getting less than the highest numbers (6S and 6L) is mostly trivial.

its either they win or lose anyway. win is getting the goal, and losing is everything else.

the problem here is like Ive said, people really like to win, and dont like to lose. but the odds of getting a 6S and 6L dictate that you will 'lose' a lot and win much, much less

so, there's the main conflict.

in a game like PoE where everyone minmaxes to hell, there are no intermediate values. whatever is considered the 'best' outcome will get made the winning condition, and everything else losing. that is the main problem imo.

"

grepman wrote:

in a game like PoE where everyone minmaxes to hell, there are no intermediate values. whatever is considered the 'best' outcome will get made the winning condition, and everything else losing. that is the main problem imo.

That's a problem from a "perfect gear" perspective. It is substantially less of a problem at the very beginning of the game, when gear is nowhere near perfect. Basically, the amount of meaningful choice between different affix groups starts off strong but diminishes over time. A lot of this has to do with affix balance, which I don't feel is very healthy once the game reaches endgame; pretty much everyone decides what the best three prefixes and best three suffixes are for gear, for everyone, almost regardless of build.

I do think that problem is correctable, but perhaps I'm being naive.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

in a game like PoE where everyone minmaxes to hell, there are no intermediate values. whatever is considered the 'best' outcome will get made the winning condition, and everything else losing. that is the main problem imo.

That's a problem from a "perfect gear" perspective. It is substantially less of a problem at the very beginning of the game, when gear is nowhere near perfect. Basically, the amount of meaningful choice between different affix groups starts off strong but diminishes over time. A lot of this has to do with affix balance, which I don't feel is very healthy once the game reaches endgame; pretty much everyone decides what the best three prefixes and best three suffixes are for gear, for everyone, almost regardless of build.

I do think that problem is correctable, but perhaps I'm being naive.

well, getting a non-tabula (trading for a meh base right color corrupted one is a possibility however) 6L is an endgame problem, I would think.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Don't like RNG? That's Kool and the Gang, just head on over to Vorici and spend your 1500 Fusings to get your 6L guaranteed. Sense of progression? It's there when you look in your stash and see those Fusings piling up, getting closer and closer to that 1500 threshold when you can finally buy your 6L. Everything you want, presumably, is right there.

The only reason I can think of for why this doesn't appease you is that your money burns a hole in your pocket; as soon as you get any currency, you want to spend instead of save. Well, that's the lottery ticket route. You can save your currency to buy what you want, or you can spend it as you earn it on lottery tickets. I don't feel sorry for you in the slightest if you cannot make the choice appropriate to your desires, when you've been given the opportunity.

The only problem I have with "save 1500 Fusings to get your 6l guaranteed." is the fact that saving 1500 fusings when you only have 4 stash tabs is near impossible unless you get rid of most other currency and save worthy items. I don't have the money to buy more stash tabs, and I need to buy a new pc that can get better fps before I even do that. So, for me the idea of nothing happening if a fusing fails is very good. I hate gambling, don't do it in real life either.... in my opinion crafting material should have more of a crafting feel to it than a gambling feel.

"

Mystereye wrote:

I agree with this.

+1
Just saw how my guild mate used 600 jeweller... guess what? no 6 sockets!
Is it craft? such a bad gamble i never seen anywhere.

this game is a slot machine. the time from your life being the tokens.

Its also a trial in discipline. Do you RNG your hard earned currency away that took weeks to gather only to get NOTHING in return? or do you excercise discipline and use vorici?


whatever the case i do believe this game has serious flaws. the fun people want to have being gated behind such extremes of wealth that take so long to acquire. hardcore gaming or... a controlled rat maze?

any one know the exchange rate for wasted time?