How should incinerate be rebalanced? Vote now
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52k-63k LMP tooltip DPS with 21/20 gems and nice gear (corrupted +1 6L) is not very impressive DPS-wise for a spell that requires the player to stand still, and that's without faster projectiles so the range isn't great. You're also looking at a build that uses blood magic and extremely high life regen to sustain the casting cost of combining faster casting + spell echo with a level 28 incinerate, without relying on gimpy elreon jewelry (7.8% regen from passive tree + 7% regen from boots + frenzy charges). In co-op or extended fights, things may start to fall apart, because the build requires kills to generate frenzy charges and relies on CWDT for warlord's mark.
If there's a problem there, perhaps it's that level 28 incinerate does over 100% more damage than a level 20 incinerate (which is a similar trend we see for other so-called OP skills, like poison arrow & explosive arrow). Either way, in a top gearing scenario, we can have 150k+ tooltip dps on a freeze pulse spell totem, which the player can double (ancestral bond) or triple (soul mantle), which freezes, shocks, and clears while the player is moving and looting. Similar numbers (and higher) can be found in build guides for arc, ice nova, heck just look around. In thread/1418863 there's an EK build with 260k tooltip dps, and that's without a corrupted +1 6L, uses faster projectiles, no empower 4, no frenzy charges, no GG gear (rings are basic crit/resist/life, missing cast speed), only 1 jewel slot (not 6x OP OP jewels), and isn't even yolo DPS because at high level its over 200%+ life in the passive tree + EB + MoM. As for the 200k incinerate tooltip DPS, you have to fix your link, because it just leads to a character profile. We can inflate tooltip at the expense of clearing efficiency or safety, for example replacing faster projectiles with slower projectiles and replacing fire penetration with a support that provides a larger tooltip number. If we're looking at yolo dps extremes at the gearing top-end, we can get tooltip numbers in the millions. Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client. Last edited by Vhlad on Oct 11, 2015, 11:43:39 AM
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"Bold mine. I called out that bullshit two pages ago. If you kite (and your cast speed is decent) and you Incinerate for 0.75 seconds, then go back to kiting, you'll average 1 stack. That's 100% more damage. Go a full second and you'll average 150% more damage. Thus, kiting with Incinerate works just fine at present, at least as well as any other short-range spell with Spell Echo (Freeze Pulse, Lightning Tendrils, etc). You can make any other argument you want, but the argument that Incinerate has any serious "stand still" disadvantage is seriously deluded. There is no disadvantage. There's just a big advantage for standing still if you can manage it. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Oct 11, 2015, 12:01:01 PM
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" I've been playing an incinerate build from 90 to 94, and the requirement to stand still is a strong detriment to clearing efficiency. My 95 totemer clears and loots much faster, because he is always moving forward. Before the awakening, my 90 freeze pulser also cleared faster because the entire screen was dead in less than 0.75 seconds. The requirement to stand still for "less than 0.75 seconds" is not to cast the spell once and clear the screen, it's to reach max stacks, and the DPS is low without reaching those stacks, meaning every time you reposition or move out of the way to dodge a hit your effective DPS takes a hit. And that's at the top end of casting speed. For my build it takes longer, because I do not use faster casting (I cannot sustain the cost in combination with spell echo). Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client.
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"You are doing it wrong. Cast speed is more important to Incinerate than damage increases, because cast speed is also damage increases in move-and-shoot situations. Simply put, if you believe Incinerate is not always supported by Spell Echo and Faster Casting, your feedback is invalid, leave thread now. edit: Ran some numbers. Even if you already have 100% increased cast speed without Faster Casting - which is a lot - another 50% from the support means 38% to 50% more run-and-gun damage. For longer channels it's closer to 32% more damage overall. If you have a more normal 50% increased cast speed without Faster Casting, it's 55% to 60% more run-and-gun damage and 44% more damage overall. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Oct 11, 2015, 12:58:38 PM
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" And if that's what you want you can simply totem your Incinerate for a better version of Flame Totem, that costs much less mana, doesn't require crit, and clears in a bigger area than SWT with Inc AoE, if you have the proper extra projectiles + speed. But I disagree with the premise that standing still results in slow clear speed, with current achieveable levels of cast speed and proj speed the skill reaches max stages within a second after which all you need to do is spin your character around and everything melts instantly, even slightly off screen. | |
" First, if you look at build guides for incinerate and count how many use faster casting, it's not a universally used or recommended support, mainly due to the casting cost. Generally I see map clearing builds gear use incinerate + fire pen + lmp + spell echo + faster projectiles as a baseline. The 6th link could be empower, life leech, iron will, faster casting, or other (niche) options. For my build (low life BM, 7 aura, aegis, Cybil's paw), I reach 73% cast speed from a buffed haste + spell echo, and it still takes over .8 seconds to reach max stacks. Adding a faster casting support is simply not sustainable without gimping my jewelry (current jewelry + iron will or life leech suits my build better). Second, faster casting + spell echo + faster projectiles would take 0.89 seconds to reach max stacks. Your assumption that it's less than 0.75 seconds is a stretch. With such a fast cast speed, you'd be looking exclusively at builds with very high resource sustain or a reliance on elreon jewelry. Even so, standing still for 0.75 seconds to shoot a skill in one direction (which may only have enough dps to kill everything after 0.75 seconds) is still slower than dropping a totem in .3 seconds that kills the screen as you move forward, or killing the screen in .2 seconds with a shock/ice nova. " With excellent gear crit flame totem is much better, and safer, than incinerate totem. You cannot discount the benefit of shock/freeze, especially in a co-op setting. Crit FT is also higher tooltip dps (130k+), and it delivers high damage from the first poof, not just after .xx seconds. Incinerate is popular because it's effective without a significant dps investment. But people trying to argue it outclasses crit builds in GG gear are being silly. Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client. Last edited by Vhlad on Oct 11, 2015, 1:05:27 PM
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" After the shock/freeze nerfs I doubt you could shock anything other than white/weak blue mobs that die instantly anyway, you may get a noticable effect in a group setting if you're carrying other people that don't run effective clearing builds. But lets look at the numbers directly: Lvl 20 Incinerate has 917.5 base dps, which, halved by the Spell Totem support, makes for 1835 at stage 4. Flame totem has 700 dps, let's assume an 1.3 multiplier for the extra support gem slot for simplicity's sake, resulting in 910 dps. So you need to get a x2 multiplier at least from your crit stats just to reach stage 4 Incinerate dps levels, while competing with the extra increased damage% and cast speed that an Incinerate build will stack in the place of those stats, and compensating for the mana cost difference, projectile speed from quality, and other coverage advantages. Sure, with really good gear you'll be able to compete with stage4 Incinerate dps. But you still won't be able to compete with the coverage and have much worse defenses despite the ridiculous investment required. You'll have better single target dps and that's probably it. But, at least the totem version takes a whole second to reach 4 stacks... | |
" What a stupid response, Scrotie. There are reasons some incinerate builds don't use faster casting, the guy even stated the reason. It's not wrong, it's just a different build to a build that uses faster casting. Oh look!! No faster casting, because having faster casting wouldn't work, but these builds do, as I and many more can attest. Typical tooltip warrior fail. Edit: My PM reply to someone asking about FC in these particular builds.
Spoiler
Faster casting is more dps, but more cost. You can't actually get it to 0 cost with the 3 rare jewels used to reduce a level 21 incinerate, it will still cost 1 mana with 3 * 5% rolls.
You can use a lvl 19 incinerate, faster casting instead of faster proj and use 2 reduced cost jewels, but you will miss the projectile speed. Sure you can have it on wand, but ideally you want it on wand AND use faster proj gem. As for getting proj speed on jewels, you are resigning yourself to having either level 19 incinerate, or having incinerate cost 1 mana, or replacing the spell damage unique jewel with another rare with reduced cost. Then you are going to roll proj speed also, so either no ES on jewels or no damage on jewels or both only if 4 property GG jewels (reduced cost/proj speed/ES/damage). And you are still going to have a lot less proj speed than the ultimate 40+ on wand + 70 on gem. Some builds can utilise FC and it's a no-brainer, some can for tooltip dps but not be as good an all round build than if using another support instead. Telling someone "Simply put, if you believe Incinerate is not always supported by Spell Echo and Faster Casting, your feedback is invalid, leave thread now." is not only rude, but actually quite funny as the party lacking validity in feedback seems to be you. The door. Casually casual. Last edited by TheAnuhart on Oct 11, 2015, 2:18:40 PM
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Tooltip DPS is very important ^_^!
Dys an sohm
Rohs an kyn Sahl djahs afah Mah morn narr |
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" I expect better from you than such silly statements. It's a pointless argument, as I'm sure GGG has their own (accurate) usage data on which supports are used. But if you want to look at all incinerate build guides (excluding incinerate totem builds, which drop spell echo and renders your statement factually bankrupt), in the first 4 pages of each class forum: No faster casting: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1345871 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1354469 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1369194 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1431782 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1408809 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1406563 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/703843 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/556177 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1375643 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1407047 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1356117 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1317863 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1381380 Faster casting as a 5th or 6th link presented with other options: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1386405 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1417062 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1413760 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1425534 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1424598 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1362293 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1291120 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1430932 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1359666 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1420112 Faster casting as a primary link (note, more than half of these have very low sheet dps for incinerate, in the 5k to 18k range, because they're BM or RF/BM built to stack life/regen, and/or use incinerate to proc scolds bridle. Additionally, some of these guide authors don't use faster casting because they only have a 5L, but propose using faster casting in a 6L scenario without actually testing or knowing whether they would be able to sustain the casting cost): https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1211719 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1024272 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1418657 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1451117 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1068509 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1041547 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1427574 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1424441 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1449132 (note: the OP in this one wants to use faster casting but is asking for help on sustaining the casting cost, lamenting that 2x elreon rings aren't enough). https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1271604 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1449769 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1395995 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1430238 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1374442 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1390212 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1360687 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1297271 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1426167 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1431609 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1431528 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1346671 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1358164 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1116897 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1189968 Never underestimate what the mod community can do for PoE if you sell an offline client.
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