CoC + 'Hits cant be evaded'

So I made a nice plot:



on x-axis: the crit chance. keep in mind u deal 50% less crit chance to bosses and rares
on y-axis: the effective chance to hit

the plot compares the normal way with chance to hit 91% with 'hits cant be evaded'.

So, pls tell me if i am wrong, but the 'hits cant be evaded' is like an increase of approx 5% more crit chance in the end? (just look at horizontal lines to compare the effective hit chance)

I just don't understand why so many ppl value it so high...
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Last edited by keeper190786 on Sep 15, 2015, 5:47:03 PM
Last bumped on Jun 29, 2016, 9:48:08 PM
Don't need to understand.
Go with the flow.

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Because with hit can't be evade you don't need any accuracy on your stuff, and all your critical hit will work.

Without you need accuracy for two things, first hit and second to confirm every critical:

wiki:

"
Accuracy-dependent attacks make a second accuracy check to confirm the critical strike. If the check fails only a normal hit is dealt. Thus accuracy can play an important role in quantity of critical strikes.[1]
You can illustrate this easiest by playing it - give it a go, you'll immediately notice the benefits with a similar crit base dagger of having the Hits Cannot Be Evaded affix.

Keep in mind that attaining a 90+ chance to hit on a CoC build will require investment in accuracy nodes - which limits the ability for the build to travel the tree as effectively (very important in most builds), or require jewellery/gloves/helms with accuracy on them.

The downside here is it removes a lot of flexibility for your character, and substantially raises the cost of the gear as well.

The 3ex you spend crafting a decent Vagan dagger means you don't have to spend a couple of ex on each of your rings, and your amulet.
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Last edited by CaptainWaffleIron on Sep 15, 2015, 6:38:23 PM
"
keeper190786 wrote:
the plot compares the normal way with chance to hit 91% with 'hits cant be evaded'.
So, pls tell me if i am wrong, but the 'hits cant be evaded' is like an increase of approx 5% more crit chance in the end? (just look at horizontal lines to compare the effective hit chance)

Pitbronson also hinted at this, but it seems you didn't account for Crit confirmation.

91% Chance to Hit, 50% Chance to Crit, 69% trigger chance:
100 * 0.91 * 0.91 * 0.5 * 0.69 = 28.57% effective trigger chance

100% Chance to Hit instead:
100 * 0.5 * 0.69 = 34.5% effective trigger chance

34.5 / 28.57 ~= 1.21
21% more triggers. Considering that's just about all of your Damage output, that's pretty damn cool. Additionally, as mentioned it frees up gear and passives.

----
Also, what do you mean by you Crit 50% less on Bosses and Rares? There is no Crit resistance.
Last edited by Vipermagi on Sep 15, 2015, 8:03:29 PM
As previously mentioned, you don't need any charts or graphs.

"Hits can't be evaded" means two things:

1. Hits always hit.

2. Crits always crit.

It's more complicated than a simple "chance to hit" x "chance to crit" = "effective crit chance". If you want the full thing, it is:

Chance to hit (negated with the mod in question)
x
Chance to crit
x
Crit passing evasion (negated with the mod in question)
x
Attack speed
x
CoC proc chance
/
CoC cooldown
Double crit check, read up the wiki. :V
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
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"
Vipermagi wrote:
"
keeper190786 wrote:
the plot compares the normal way with chance to hit 91% with 'hits cant be evaded'.
So, pls tell me if i am wrong, but the 'hits cant be evaded' is like an increase of approx 5% more crit chance in the end? (just look at horizontal lines to compare the effective hit chance)

Pitbronson also hinted at this, but it seems you didn't account for Crit confirmation.

91% Chance to Hit, 50% Chance to Crit, 69% trigger chance:
100 * 0.91 * 0.91 * 0.5 * 0.69 = 28.57% effective trigger chance

100% Chance to Hit instead:
100 * 0.5 * 0.69 = 34.5% effective trigger chance

34.5 / 28.57 ~= 1.21
21% more triggers. Considering that's just about all of your Damage output, that's pretty damn cool. Additionally, as mentioned it frees up gear and passives.

----
Also, what do you mean by you Crit 50% less on Bosses and Rares? There is no Crit resistance.



You just wanted to understand by yourself critic dmg it's a resistance, when he said that bosses has less critic affected than low type of rest of monsters.
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Pretty sure accuracy rolls twice.

So 91% chance to hit, 50% crit chance = 91% chance to hit and then mobs still have a 9% chance to evade the crit, so 50% becomes a 45.5% chance to crit = 41.41% chance to crit over all attacks

And 100% chance to hit, 50% crit chance = 50% crit chance

The difference grows bigger as crit chance grows bigger. With most CoC builds running power charges and such, 60-70% crit chance isn't unreasonable. At 70% crit chance you've got a difference of about 12% crit chance over all attacks. It's a pretty meaningful difference for builds that only deal damage when they crit and a lot more valuable than some extra spell damage or something.

Also keep in mind that running a non-vagan weapon means you have to fit accuracy into your build, which costs crucial passive points and possibly even a stat roll on a gear piece or two.

"
Mark_GGG wrote:
Some caveats:
1) If an attack would crit you, evasion is tested a second time, and if you evade, the hit is downgraded to a non-crit (it does not miss, since it's already tested for that and hit). This roll is purely random and does not increase the entropy value - it just generates a number from 1 to 100 and compares to the chance to hit. Details of why are in the spoiler.
Spoiler
Given that this, if it occurs, would always be the next evasion test after the one to see if it hit, then if this did use the entropy value, then having above 50% chance to evade would make you immune to critical strikes, since you can't fail two successive evasion checks on entropy if their chance to hit is below 50%. If you were hit, that means you just failed the evasion check to evade the attack, and thus the entropy is such that the second test would be unable to hit you, and the crit would downgrade, whereas if it failed to hit in the first place, then critting or not is irrelevant.
While the concept of being so evasive you can't be crit is cool, the above behaviour is undesirable, and so checking chance to hit for the purposes of confirming a crit should actually stay a crit does not test entropy. Testing chance to hit for the purposes of actually hitting is always done via the entropy value.

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Last edited by Nasreth on Sep 16, 2015, 11:54:07 AM
so, indeed i wasnt aware of the double crit check... so i need to square my hit chance in my plot, while the crit chance only goes in linearly. So it makes more sense. But still, should a greater base crit chance clearly outweigh the evading thing...
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