My Problem with the community as a Theorycrafter/Guide maker

"

reboticon wrote:

I went and looked at 3 of your guides because of this thread, I ignore most guide threads on reddit. Since this seems to be important to you, I'm going to offer you some constructive feedback. None of the 3 guides that I looked at had videos of genuinely difficult content. The roughest thing I saw was a 77 plateau, and at one point you said 'if you die, who cares, it's standard.'

If you want people to watch your guides, you can't have that mindset. Most people play this game to Min/Max, particularly people that watch guides. If you don't give them what they want, they will let you know. Are your builds capable of doing uber? What about normal Atziri? That's the kind of thing you should post videos of. The type of player who doesn't really care about doing that sort of content is not the kind of character that looks at guides. Like you, they prefer to experiment.

Again, I'm not saying this to try and take shots, I'm only trying to help you understand what you will need to do if you want to make guides that people watch. You have to know your audience, and you have to decide which is more important to you. Making a build that you think is cool through experimentation, or making a build that others want to copy, which means 'To be OP.'

Neither way is 'The Right Way' to play the game, necessarily. 'The Right Way' is the one you enjoy, but there is no reason you can't do both kinds of builds.

I feel a bit of a heel posting this, but I really am only doing it to try and help you learn how to improve. Your builds are cool, but if you want people to be interested in following them, you will have to aim for OP over interesting. Good luck.

Yeah, in regards to that video, i was like... ugh... no ones gonna watch this anyway, it was my lowest points of guide making :/

I guess im slowly adjusting to 2.0's changes... so experimenting is normally the first thing i do before going for the more OP builds, if i can think of any :P

Nah, you're not a heel :) i appreciate any comment and feedback, from anyone :D

Thank you again for replying!

"

Bars wrote:

Added something else to my previous post, writing this to make sure you see it.

edit: also, reboticon speaks the truth. Being passionate about something does not necessarily mean others will be interested and does not guarantee success. For example, when I check out a guide, I look for optimization, gear efficiency and extremely good defenses combined with good damage. I don't care if it's "interesting", I care if I'll be able to clear content quickly and safely. A lot of others think the same way. Dying in HC is not an interesting or pleasant experience and people try to avoid it.

Yeah, i see what you mean, i guess people have different tastes in builds... others want atziri capable builds, others want MF, it just depends on the person viewing i suppose.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

rebot and bars elaborated nicely on what I just glossed.

When people can have their pick of builds, and the general consensus is that fastesthardestquickest is bestest, you better aim to be better than the bestest if you want anything more than niche appeal.

And this has been largely true of many things for quite a long time.

For me the trick has always been quality, not quantity. In just about anything. Give ten people who respond well to my work over ten thousand who'll forget it the moment they see something else.

And you're just not going to find that on the PoE reddit. Place is a damn popularity contest, which almost always confuse the Bell curve for a performance meter.

Yeah, but the thing is, its difficult for me to find OP/Best builds because i have a different mindset, that mindset being "Lets have fun with something different" instead of following a certain meta.

I do focus more on the positive replies, in comparison to the negative ones, so that sort of helps :)

Yeah, ill definitely avoid the PoE reddit now, ive seen too much

Thanks again for the reply.

"

Yeah, but the thing is, its difficult for me to find OP/Best builds because i have a different mindset, that mindset being "Lets have fun with something different" instead of following a certain meta.

I do focus more on the positive replies, in comparison to the negative ones, so that sort of helps :)

Yeah, ill definitely avoid the PoE reddit now, ive seen too much

Thanks again for the reply.

Well, you should play to your strengths. A large part of guide writing is marketing - being able to present yor guide well. I've read a lot of guides over the years and the most successful ones aren't the best ones (from my viewpoint of optimization and min/maxing), they are the most well-packaged. Catchy names (fakener, waynetrain, blender), nice pictures, flashy videos, shameless self-advertising and hype. You want a truly effective build? Just take a look at the top 100 in the current HC temp league and you're good to go. A variety of extremely solid builds. Or just copy any build by Havoc (he's always in the HC top 1-2 in the first week though, so that's a moot point).

So, this paints a rather sad picture of the general populace, but it's unfortunately accurate. The mass does resemble a flock of sheep. If you want popular success, learn from the marketing experts and optimize your guides for idiots. The more idiot-friendly it is, the better - you can do no wrong there.

Stress on your build being unique, fun, interesting. Attract the flock by telling them they'll be different with your guide (yes, it's ironic). Add nice videos and pictures. Hype it up. The popularity of cast on crit builds comes to mind. In PoE 1.3, you could just roll a generic flameblaster and oneshot everything. Extremely good damage and clear speed, but somewhat dull. People would choose to play flashy CoC builds which cover the screen in fireballs... and also clear much slower and die much easier than a flameblaster. But it does look rather nice, though :D


p.s. or you could do what Charan says and stick to quality over quantity :)

p.p.s. if one of your guides does become popular, be prepared to answer the stupidest question you could imagine all day long

"

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

rebot and bars elaborated nicely on what I just glossed.

When people can have their pick of builds, and the general consensus is that fastesthardestquickest is bestest, you better aim to be better than the bestest if you want anything more than niche appeal.

And this has been largely true of many things for quite a long time.

For me the trick has always been quality, not quantity. In just about anything. Give ten people who respond well to my work over ten thousand who'll forget it the moment they see something else.

And you're just not going to find that on the PoE reddit. Place is a damn popularity contest, which almost always confuse the Bell curve for a performance meter.

Yeah, but the thing is, its difficult for me to find OP/Best builds because i have a different mindset, that mindset being "Lets have fun with something different" instead of following a certain meta.

I do focus more on the positive replies, in comparison to the negative ones, so that sort of helps :)

Yeah, ill definitely avoid the PoE reddit now, ive seen too much

Thanks again for the reply.

I don't wanna be rude or offend anybody but average build reader/user [Removed by support] can't pick 4th support for his TS by himself. Such guys have most radical opinions and are most assured in their reliabilty for making general statements.

Really OP don't let them hurt you man. That's rudicoulus

For a guide to get attention (tons of replies), it needs the following:

-> 6+ digit DpS or higher
(it doesn't matter if that only works with mirror tier gear. You can simply write "can be done with 5 ex budget" whether this is true or not)

-> Hard content beaten
UBER ATZIRI DOWN in title, videos of crazy hard maps, etc

-> Exagerations like "facetank/oneshoot anything"

-> Streamer's builds
(because people can actually see it works... quite obvious)

People want to know if a build can get them to the top. It's not so much about the real chance to get up there (like getting these mirrored items, farming uber atziri), most of them won't get there.

I'm also a big fan of theorycrafting, min-maxing and writing guides.
But I'm not dedicated enough to farm for the bestest gear, so my min-maxing is usually a bit different, it's "get enough bang for the buck".

As an example, the build I created for warbands makes use of Hyaon's Fury, around 400 elemental dps for 1 chaos (a few weeks ago). It's hard to find a better ratio in "DpS/currency".
Then I added all kinds of "free" stuff (efficient things that don't cost anything).
Wrath, HoT - free DpS
Acrobatics, Arctic Armor, Fortify - free mitigation
Tabula - super cheap (self-farmable) 6L
Blood Dance for convenient Frenzy charge generation

... that's what a "perfect" build for me has to look like. Somewhat unique in what it does (here: allout lightning melee), with a key, but affordable unique, an easy to understand playstyle, lots of synergies, and room for upgrades (tabula -> real 6L etc).

I couldn't care less about the 1 million guides with mirrored daggers/bows/wands.
It simply doesn't offer anything resembling a "guide".
Of course it works, you're using a 560 DpS dagger!


But that's not "fancy" enough, not the kind of build people are looking for. ;)

"

Bars wrote:

"

Yeah, but the thing is, its difficult for me to find OP/Best builds because i have a different mindset, that mindset being "Lets have fun with something different" instead of following a certain meta.

I do focus more on the positive replies, in comparison to the negative ones, so that sort of helps :)

Yeah, ill definitely avoid the PoE reddit now, ive seen too much

Thanks again for the reply.

Well, you should play to your strengths. A large part of guide writing is marketing - being able to present yor guide well. I've read a lot of guides over the years and the most successful ones aren't the best ones (from my viewpoint of optimization and min/maxing), they are the most well-packaged. Catchy names (fakener, waynetrain, blender), nice pictures, flashy videos, shameless self-advertising and hype. You want a truly effective build? Just take a look at the top 100 in the current HC temp league and you're good to go. A variety of extremely solid builds. Or just copy any build by Havoc (he's always in the HC top 1-2 in the first week though, so that's a moot point).

So, this paints a rather sad picture of the general populace, but it's unfortunately accurate. The mass does resemble a flock of sheep. If you want popular success, learn from the marketing experts and optimize your guides for idiots. The more idiot-friendly it is, the better - you can do no wrong there.

Stress on your build being unique, fun, interesting. Attract the flock by telling them they'll be different with your guide (yes, it's ironic). Add nice videos and pictures. Hype it up. The popularity of cast on crit builds comes to mind. In PoE 1.3, you could just roll a generic flameblaster and oneshot everything. Extremely good damage and clear speed, but somewhat dull. People would choose to play flashy CoC builds which cover the screen in fireballs... and also clear much slower and die much easier than a flameblaster. But it does look rather nice, though :D


p.s. or you could do what Charan says and stick to quality over quantity :)

p.p.s. if one of your guides does become popular, be prepared to answer the stupidest question you could imagine all day long

Haha well, the thing is, i tried that fancy naming stuff, and it didnt appeal to anyone xD "The Bloodlusting Marauder" sounds wierd :P

With my recent build guide, i was doing it late, and was in somewhat a rush to get to bed (coz, the birds were chirpin and the sun was shining) so, i just added random images and stuff... >_> I want to make proper videos, but when i record, my frames drop and the games engine doesn't entirely help... I used to be an editor for a clan in Call of Duty, so, editing Path of Exile would be fun, but that also falls into the whole "cant edit 30fps clips" thing

I'm actually planning to do a little edit thing with my Ice Crash build, just jotting down some ideaas today, and trying them out during the weekend, coz, im busy until then.

"

skuadak wrote:

"

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

rebot and bars elaborated nicely on what I just glossed.

When people can have their pick of builds, and the general consensus is that fastesthardestquickest is bestest, you better aim to be better than the bestest if you want anything more than niche appeal.

And this has been largely true of many things for quite a long time.

For me the trick has always been quality, not quantity. In just about anything. Give ten people who respond well to my work over ten thousand who'll forget it the moment they see something else.

And you're just not going to find that on the PoE reddit. Place is a damn popularity contest, which almost always confuse the Bell curve for a performance meter.

Yeah, but the thing is, its difficult for me to find OP/Best builds because i have a different mindset, that mindset being "Lets have fun with something different" instead of following a certain meta.

I do focus more on the positive replies, in comparison to the negative ones, so that sort of helps :)

Yeah, ill definitely avoid the PoE reddit now, ive seen too much

Thanks again for the reply.

I don't wanna be rude or offend anybody but average build reader/user [Removed by support] can't pick 4th support for his TS by himself. Such guys have most radical opinions and are most assured in their reliabilty for making general statements.

Really OP don't let them hurt you man. That's rudicoulus

I try and not let them hurt me, it was just, somehow today it struck me a bit harder then usual :P

"

Peterlerock wrote:

For a guide to get attention (tons of replies), it needs the following:

-> 6+ digit DpS or higher
(it doesn't matter if that only works with mirror tier gear. You can simply write "can be done with 5 ex budget" whether this is true or not)

-> Hard content beaten
UBER ATZIRI DOWN in title, videos of crazy hard maps, etc

-> Exagerations like "facetank/oneshoot anything"

-> Streamer's builds
(because people can actually see it works... quite obvious)

People want to know if a build can get them to the top. It's not so much about the real chance to get up there (like getting these mirrored items, farming uber atziri), most of them won't get there.

I'm also a big fan of theorycrafting, min-maxing and writing guides.
But I'm not dedicated enough to farm for the bestest gear, so my min-maxing is usually a bit different, it's "get enough bang for the buck".

As an example, the build I created for warbands makes use of Hyaon's Fury, around 400 elemental dps for 1 chaos (a few weeks ago). It's hard to find a better ratio in "DpS/currency".
Then I added all kinds of "free" stuff (efficient things that don't cost anything).
Wrath, HoT - free DpS
Acrobatics, Arctic Armor, Fortify - free mitigation
Tabula - super cheap (self-farmable) 6L
Blood Dance for convenient Frenzy charge generation

... that's what a "perfect" build for me has to look like. Somewhat unique in what it does (here: allout lightning melee), with a key, but affordable unique, an easy to understand playstyle, lots of synergies, and room for upgrades (tabula -> real 6L etc).

But that's not "fancy" enough, not the kind of build people are looking for. ;)

That's fair and all, but when i theorycraft, i focus more on the fun sides of it, instead of "must get 1mill dps" aspect. I know i can make a build with 100k+ DPS, but i choose not to because other ideas might seem more fun... in a way, im sort of catering for a smaller amount of people who want random builds and such.

Most of my builds, i try to make the budgety, but, because im in standard, i can't help but use better gear (i would play warbands, but... that economy... :/)

"

That's fair and all, but when i theorycraft, i focus more on the fun sides of it, instead of "must get 1mill dps" aspect. I know i can make a build with 100k+ DPS, but i choose not to because other ideas might seem more fun... in a way, im sort of catering for a smaller amount of people who want random builds and such.

Most of my builds, i try to make the budgety, but, because im in standard, i can't help but use better gear (i would play warbands, but... that economy... :/)

That's like 100% what I wrote.

Budget buids, interesting mechanics, that's fine. That's what I look for as well.

But that's simply not what gets attention.
Not shiny/crazy/fancy/op enough.