RIP Scion Dialogue

The new dialogue may not be perfect but the old dialogue was not perfect either and received the most complaints of all the player character dialogue to that point (from what I could see at the time, at least).

The idea with new content is to improve the game - adding an option for the old dialogue would be allowing a recall to something already regarded as less than perfect so is unlikely to happen. The new may not be perfect but it was a replacement designed to improve on the old and bring her character more in line with the others.

I think the point some have made that she now has less character than her old version is a good point but doesn't take everything else into account. She clearly couldn't be left as she was unless the other characters were brought more into line with her (which was originally the plan).

It's fairly obvious that if the new dialogue had been the Scion's dialogue from the start, no one would be complaining. The initial attempt at the Scion's dialogue was an experiment of sorts and it didn't work out as planned, in some respects mostly because of time constraints at the time of her creation. The new dialogue, whilst not perfectly evocative of the character hinted at originally, is more in line with the other characters and definitely an improvement in that sense - in other words, it's more consistent overall!

"

BadWumpum wrote:

The new dialogue may not be perfect but the old dialogue was not perfect either and received the most complaints of all the player character dialogue to that point (from what I could see at the time, at least).

The idea with new content is to improve the game - adding an option for the old dialogue would be allowing a recall to something already regarded as less than perfect so is unlikely to happen. The new may not be perfect but it was a replacement designed to improve on the old and bring her character more in line with the others.

I think the point some have made that she now has less character than her old version is a good point but doesn't take everything else into account. She clearly couldn't be left as she was unless the other characters were brought more into line with her (which was originally the plan).

It's fairly obvious that if the new dialogue had been the Scion's dialogue from the start, no one would be complaining. The initial attempt at the Scion's dialogue was an experiment of sorts and it didn't work out as planned, in some respects mostly because of time constraints at the time of her creation. The new dialogue, whilst not perfectly evocative of the character hinted at originally, is more in line with the other characters and definitely an improvement in that sense - in other words, it's more consistent overall!

While I understand your arguments about the new dialogue being more consistent and the old being considered imperfect, those are still simply opinions. Just like we have expressed a strong opinion in the other direction.

But I am not asking for what you want to be taken away, just for what we want to be brought back. No offense, but your dismissal of the idea of the old dialogue as an option at char creation or cosmetic shop was fairly weak. GGG does a great job of listening, they admit when they get things wrong, and enjoy making their playerbase happy. Just because at one time they had a negativr opinion of the old dialogue does not permanently declare it worthless in the eyes of their consumers.

Your dismissal of that point almost discredits GGG in my opinion.

Otherwise thanks for participating in this discussion without the rudeness and attacks of some of the others.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

It wasn't that he expected the horse to get back up. He just liked the sound his stick made when it hit the corpse.

I really like your phrasing of that.

She sounds so fucking boring now.

"The youngest daughter of a respected family. Dresses, dances, suitors... a fortunate life for one fortunately born. My life... had I not been different. Had I not thought more clearly, learned more quickly, dreamed more deeply and darkly than any child should.

There seems to be no limit to what I can do, no walls containing my talents. To my parents, I was a raw nugget to be battered and moulded into a prize for admiration, for envy... for sale. That life died on a wedding bed in Theopolis.

Today, Wraeclast offers me a new life, written not by birth, nor family, nor society. This life will be written to answer but on question: Who am I?"
Character Dialogue

Achieving Level 2: "Exile is a lesson, and I've always been a quick study."

Achieving Level 3: "Life is growth, even in a graveyard."

Achieving Level 5: "I live, I learn, I kill."

Achieving Level 10: "Building my nightmare, death by death."

Achieving Level 15: "Prior to exile I was but a shadow of myself."

Achieving Level 20: "Power corrupts, while corruption empowers."

Achieving Level 30: "And thus I harness the beast within."


On the Twilight Strand: "It's impossible, yet somehow I know this place."

On Lioneye's Watch: "Letters of exile? Mine said 'mariticide' and 'consorting with the unholy'. The bastard deserved it."

On the Coast: "Nessa cares, Bestel laughs, and Tarkleigh fights on. Where do they find the strength?"

On the Mud Flats: "I thought there was no smell fouler than Theopolis in high summer. It seems I was wrong."

On the Tidal Island: "What does Wraeclast have that makes men risk their lives to come here?"

On the Submerged Passage: "I've survived the hungry dead, and the ravenous living. What's a little bit of darkness?"

On the Flooded Depths: "Tracking through the bowels of my exile... A little unseeming for someone of my birth and status, don't you think, mother dearest?"

On the Ledge: "This is like waking from one of my dreams."

On the Climb: "My heart beats faster, my breath shorter. Up there, something is waiting for me."

On the Lower Prison: "I know this smell. Age old, yet as fresh to me as the day I used my unholy gifts to end my marriage."

On the Prisoner's Gate: "My eyes are open, yet the nightmare continues."

On the Ship Graveyard: "To reach the truth, it's through the Siren's realm I must walk."

On the Ship Graveyard Cave: "There's something down here, I can feel it."

On the Coves: "Whether on the walls around me, or on the walls around my mind, those accursed symbols are always there."

On the Cavern of Wrath: "Back into the bowels of exile, where the darkness veritably slithers with hunger."

On the Southern Forest: "All about me is lush and vibrant, yet what do I see? Shadow without and shadow within."

On the Forest Encampment: "So different from Lioneye's Watch. This is a place of vigor and contentment, a home."

On the Old Fields: "These Azmeri have lived here all their lives, and their ancestors before them...yet they're whole of body and mind. How?"

On the Den: "Beneath the surface, the earth whimpers in the agony of transition."

On the Crossroads: "It was possible to be happy here once."

On the Fellshrine Ruins: "Faith offers little protection in Wraeclast."

On the Crypt: "I walked these halls in my nightmares. My every step watched and hated as now."

On the Chamber of Sins: "The men here should have listened to their hearts, for their minds were not their own."

On the Riverways: "The only shadow they have is the one they cast. How do the Azmeri remain uncorrupted when all else twists and suffers?"

On the Blackwood: "The sickened trees cling to each other for comfort."

On the Weaver's Chambers: "The natural order has been overturned. That which was crushed underfoot now rules without question."

On the Western Forest: "Heart and limb: this land is in thrall to the shadows."

On the Vaal Ruins: "They died here, in the thousands, but not when the Empire fell. The shadows here feel much older."

On the Wetlands: "I thought myself so special. Turns out I'm just another vector for contagion."

On the Caverns: "I was born to walk from shadow to shadow."

On the City of Sarn: "The shadows flee from the glare of Solaris. What would it take to burn the shadows from this land forever?"

On the Sarn Encampment: "Civilization rejects us, and yet we continue to build shrines in its honor."

On the Slums: "This could've been Oriath, yet The Cataclysm didn't reach across the sea. Why not?"

On the Crematorium: "Axiom Prison, the Chamber of Sins, this Crematorium - places where a man can make his own nightmares manifest."

On the Marketplace Sewers: "I can hear them behind those walls. The poor bastards still think they're alive."

On the Marketplace: "The great ones strive to live forever, while the people struggle to make a living."

On the Catacombs: "God abandoned this land a long time ago."

On the Battlegrounds: "Whatever Dominus wants, he's willing to spend sword and soul to get it."

One the Docks: "Wraeclast bears the weight of Sarn's heavy industry."

On Solaris: "It seems that even time loses its will in the face of nightmare."

On the Sewers Waterway: "You are remembered only for the mess you leave behind."

On the Ebony Barracks: "What am I to do against the full might of Oriath?"

On the Lunaris Temple: "When I touch a virtue gem, I commune with the corrupted, the feelings are the same; and here, they are ten fold."

On the Imperial Garden: "When will we finally learn that nature knows best?"

On the Library: "The library in Theopolis was my sanctuary. Somewhere I could hide from expectation."

On the Sceptre of God: "Nightmares build their nests in the towers of man's ambition."


Having killed the Hungry Corpse: "So this is your gift, your new life, Dominus? Why not execute us and be done with it?"

Having killed Hillock: "I'll not be joining your kind, dead man, not today."

Having killed Fire Fury: "Humanity has lost its mind here in Wraeclast."

Having killed the Necromancer: "Now the inhabitants of my nightmares wear flesh and haunt me in the twilight that is my life."

Having killed the Deep Dweller: "I felt its pain, the very moment of its death. This corrupted creature and I...connected? God, I have to get out of here."

Having killed Kuduku: "I felt it - the moment this thing gave up its twisted hold on life. But how?"

To Brutus: "Please my lord, just talk to me!"

Having killed Brutus: "Curse you, Brutus! Curse your symbols and curse your bloody murdered empire! I would have listened... I would have understood!"

Having killed Fairgraves: "I am doomed to destroy the truth wherever I find it."

Having killed Amarissa: "She spoke to me as she died - the voice of a little girl imprisoned within a monster."

Having killed Merveil: "I'm so sorry my lady, we are cursed to bear the gifts bestowed upon us."

Having killed the Great White Beast: "I saw a man through this tortured animal's eyes. A man with ambitions as vast and black as the night sky."

Having killed Geofri: "Please accept this mercy, Geofri."

Having killed Kraityn: "After all this land's been through, your kind still manages to make it worse, Kraityn."

Having killed Fidelitas: "Brutus transformed himself out of fear. Fidelitas did so out of love."

Having killed the Weaver: "Pull but one thread, and the fabric of the world unravels."

Having killed Alira: "Why did Wraeclast love you so, gutter witch?"

Having killed Oak: "There's your peace, Oak. The only peace that anyone can expect in Wraeclast."

To the Vaal Oversoul: "I've known your kind since the day I was born, nightmare."

Having killed the Vaal Oversoul: "The day might be mine - but what sort of day is it?"

Having killed Marceus, the Defaced: "Stone is disfigured as easily as flesh. Reality is the clay and corruption is the sculptor."

Gravicius, to the Scion: "God gave this world to man, not to you little girl."

Having killed Gravicius: "Give my regards to my husband when you meet him again, Gravicius."

Having killed Kole: "You were a son of Wraeclast, and I am its daughter."

Having killed Piety: "That which you loved, Piety, will never love you back."

Having killed Dominus: "Between man and nightmare, that is where I've always stood Dominus, long before you did."


Full inventory: "Far too much baggage."

Out of mana: "I have nothing more to give."

Occasionally, after killing a rare: "Go to bed, little nightmare!"


On the Medicine Chest: "This is the first time in more years that I can remember that I've had the freedom to simply help someone."

On the Strange Glyph Wall: "Thaumaturgy - as marvelous as it is monstrous."

To Piety, in the Warden's Quarters: "That wonder child is dead. Drowned in blood on her wedding day. That woman you just saw, Piety? I don't know who she is."

On Piety, at the Prisoner's Gate: "Piety has become a true mistress of thaumaturgy. I wonder what else she has learned in her time here. I need to find another way inland if I'm to figure it out."

To Piety, in the Chamber of Sins: "As are rats and lions, Piety."

On the Slave Girl: "I found your old flame, old Fairgraves. In return, you are going to have to tell me how this bewitched land and I seem to know each other."

On the Allflame: "The hue, the warmth...it nestles itself onto my skin. I feel it in my bones. Though this is more intense, I've felt this same worth ever since I set foot on Wraeclast."

On Shavronne's Diary (Warden's Quarters): "Heroism is often just foulness by a different name."

On the Baleful Gem: "Everything that happened to the Empire lies right here, imprisoned within crystalline walls."

Having killed Lorrata: "I am forced to perpetuate the mistakes of the past."

Opening the Ancient Seal: "Determination made me open it. Damnation made me regret it."

To Piety, in the Crematorium: "Perhaps I'll read my future in your entrails, Piety."

To Tolman: "You and I, Tolman, playthings of ambition."

On the Undying Blockage: "Given time, everything could come to look like this."

On the Bust of Hector Titucius: "The face of cruelty immortalized in platinum."

On the Bust of Gaius Sentari: "Another champion of vanity."

On the Bust of Marceus Lioneye: "A pretty face forged by ugly ideals."

On the Decanter Spiritus: "I dare not look too closely into the glass; something is likely to look back."

On the Ribbon Spool: "Ribbons, statues, elementals, even the whole of the Vaal constructs - all ghastly threads of the same tapestry."

On the Thaumetic Sulphite: "The dust that gathers on the coffin of an empire."

On the Undying Blockage: "I will cleanse this land of nightmare, tunnel by tunnel if I have to."

On Chitus' Plum: "From corrupted bones to twisted wood to poisoned fruit."

On Fairgraves' death: "I'm sorry Fairgraves, sorry for us both. For where you go, so must I."

On the Golden Pages: "I too am the past, written into the present in flesh and blood. A waking nightmare."

On Tower Key: "My audience with Dominus."


On the Weathered Carving (Coast): "I was taught that the Karui were beasts. Closer to monkey than man. What else were the Templar wrong about?"

On the Weathered Carving (Tidal Island): "The Karui wiped the Eternal Empire from the face of this coast, yet rocks are all that remain of them. It makes no sense."

On the Weathered Carving (Mud Flats): "I've been haunted by such nightmares all my life."

On the Weathered Carving (Ledge): "Nightmares of the mind raising nightmares from the grave. What could've caused this?"

On the Weathered Carving (Climb): "It infects living flesh and bone. Even the very earth - perhaps I'm infected too."

On the Weathered Carving (Ship Graveyard): "The Karui reverted to cannibalism. Perhaps those primitives outside Lioneye's Watch have been drawn to that same black spirit."

On the Weathered Carving (Coves): "A Karui nation thousands strong and still they failed to unravel the nature of the black spirit. What possible hope have I?"

On the Graffiti (City of Sarn): "It was meant to be the Eternal Empire, after all."

On the Graffiti (The Slums): "Victario wasn't very fond of Emperor Chitus. I wonder what he would have made of Dominus."

On the Graffiti (Warehouse District): "If the eyes are the windows to the soul, then the gems are the doorways to the flesh."

On the Graffiti (Catacombs): "Perhaps one of these names will be Piety's... or mine."

On the Graffiti (Battlefront): "If Chitus was the Monkey King, then who was this 'shadow'? Malachai perhaps?"

On the Graffiti (Docks): "The gems must have been built here in their thousands! They certainly left their mark."




I miss all this. Give us an option to put it back in the game.

I personally understood certain quotes in a different way.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

"

Daha248 wrote:

On the Lower Prison: "I know this smell. Age old, yet as fresh to me as the day I used my unholy gifts to end my marriage."

Firstly, what unholy gifts? There's been no mention of that so far. All we know is she killed her husband on their wedding night. Given she's shown nothing but an aptitude for learning and amoral behaviour so far, this seems pretty left-field.

The rest: RTOS.

She is probably referring to thaumaturgy, but you're right in the fact that anybody new would never be able to guess this, but considering the fact that you can't play scion until you finish up act 3, most people should be able to figure this out.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

"

Daha248 wrote:

On the Crypt: "I walked these halls in my nightmares. My every step watched and hated as now."

Oh, and we're back to this vague but inconsistent 'my soul is linked to Wraeclast, I dream of this place' subplot. I like how it pops its head up now and then but resists serious scrutiny because, much like a Devourer, it's all head, no body.

"

Daha248 wrote:

On the Sceptre of God: "Nightmares build their nests in the towers of man's ambition."

Close second for worst thing Edwin's ever written for the game. It means well but god that's a clunker.

"

Daha248 wrote:

Having killed the Great White Beast: "I saw a man through this tortured animal's eyes. A man with ambitions as vast and black as the night sky."

Epic FAAE. Seems like an attempt to illustrate that the scion can now see through monsters' eyes at the things that made them (clearly Maligaro here), but we're just being told this. There's nothing else to it. It doesn't grant her any game-related abilities; it doesn't mean a thing beyond what she's saying.

Maligaro? Considering Maligaro is probably dead for about a couple of hundred years and this beast by far doesn't look as butchered as fidelitas, I'd go with the guess that it's Malachai. The one that has corrupted every other single beast in the jungle, and is pretty much creating the world in his vision(sounds pretty ambitious to me). Considering that this is a nod to act 4, I'd say this is by far the quote that stands out the most in retrospect of everything she has said up until this point.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

"

Daha248 wrote:

To the Vaal Oversoul: "I've known your kind since the day I was born, nightmare."

Fairly sure her childhood would have been vastly different were this actually true. Hyperbole is something thankfully missing from the majority of PoE writing. Also, calling the Vaal Oversoul 'nightmare' (I still can't believe how often she used that word!) when we have an actual 'Nightmare' waiting in the wings in Highgate would have been confusing. And there's enough nightmare/Nightmare confusion as it is.

"

Daha248 wrote:

Having killed Dominus: "Between man and nightmare, that is where I've always stood Dominus, long before you did."

Oh hey look, it's that whole 'I've been here before, I've dreamed of this place' subplot again. But this time, she's made it much more than a dream. She's outright saying that this is what she is and worse, what she's been for a very long time. Longer than the span of her fleshly life, at any rate.

So what? Where is that going? What does it mean? That she's reincarnated? Some sort of avatar? That some otherworldly presence has taken roost in her mind? There is no evidence of any of these beyond what she herself has said...TO HERSELF...we have absolutely nothing to hold onto here.

Filed under:

Cray-cray/RTOS/FAAE all at once!

"

Daha248 wrote:

On the Weathered Carving (Mud Flats): "I've been haunted by such nightmares all my life."

More of that inappropriate empathy. The Karui were more than haunted by Kitava. They were beset. Driven to human sacrifice out of desperation because their dead wouldn't rest. That's a whole other thing than simply 'having nightmares'.

"

Daha248 wrote:

On the Weathered Carving (Ledge): "Nightmares of the mind raising nightmares from the grave. What could've caused this?"

RTOS.

I'd say that the most likely explanation for all this nightmare stuff she is saying, is that the scion is somehow very close to the thaumaturgic power we know as "the beast"(incidentally her level 30 phrase reflects this), this would explain why she has such great affinity to thaumaturgy and explains how she has seen wraeclast before.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Whoa, thanks so much for engaging rationally with my insane-bat-shit spam.

Okay, Maligaro (in spirit) is sort of the 'big bad' of that part of Wraeclast, specifically Eastern Phrecian Forest. As for the age thing, Fidelitas aka Raulo can't be any younger, so I figure the Baleful Gem, if employed the right/wrong way, can do things like greatly extend life, even if they're not that 'butchered'. I mean, thaumaturgy in general can do that: look at Kadavrus and Brutus in Act 1. They're both from the days of Shavronne. So no, I wouldn't assume it's Malachai BUT you make a good argument for it. Thing is, that quote is from well before Malachai's appearance in the game, back when I believe GGG weren't even sure who the big bad of Act 4 was going to be. At one point, I believe they bandied about the idea of it being Dialla...perhaps...

But 'ambition vast and black' is more appropriately Malachai than Maligaro. That I'll grant. I stand by the basic FAAE though. Even in Awakening, it would be too isolated to really have much weight as regards foreshadowing Malachai.

Regarding the Beast affinity: that's fair enough, but again, it's not strong enough a narrative thread to have much meaning in context. My basic point, and I believe the ultimate reason why the dialogue was changed/toned down, was that the culmination of all her dialogue gave us no clear character definition or trajectory. She was at once an ancient child of nightmare, Wraeclastian tour guide, some weird empath to Wraeclast's monsters, and a murderess of her arranged husband. It's too many directions at once to mean much at all.

I'd happily dissect all the other class' dialogue to show why they're all much more consistent and effective, why each of their samples give us, with very few words, very strong senses of character and attitude. The Shadow is my favourite example of this. Not all of his samples are necessary, but they ALL strengthen the basic premise that he's a shameless murderer with a wicked sense of humour and a strange sense of assassin's morality ('I'm a gardener clearing the weeds so that the crops may grow!' is easily one the best lines in the game)...but all six are so on point that even when they're being sort of obvious, they're not being redundant.

I look forward to illustrating why the 'new' Scion dialogue, while bland, is of the same calibre.

I was personally indeed also debating the fact that it could be malachai, as there is indeed quite some time between those releases, but I believe forsaken masters was around 6 months after scion release (could be wrong about this) and their dialogue most definitely keeps referring to Malachai. Considering the fact that nightmare and beast are also referred in her statements( and those words are basically the whole plot of act 4) I think saying it is malachai isn't too far fetched, but i guess this one is mostly based on your point of view though as it could indeed very well be maligaro. As for your point of shavronne, I'd say that kadavrus is pretty deformed (although that is probably just for the fact that the base necromancer model is just pretty ugly).

I do agree with you that most of her dialogue was indeed all over the place, but i feel like certain phrases from her do have some interesting stuff behind them(that would mostly be the ones i quoted in my previous post) still have some merit of being in the game.

Did anyone mention the Witch? Or care?

Why did the sophisticated, "Life is fleeting" become the sophomoric, "Life is short, deal with it?' The usual dumbing down?

I find it curious that you are so invested in making sure that other people aren't allowed the legitimacy of their own preferences/opinions when it comes to this issue, Charan. It seems that, if someone voices something other than "good riddance" to the original Scion dialogue, you intend to simply bury them under the weight of your scorn and your own personal opinions on what is Good And Right With The New Dialogue. :-/

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

This is true. Boring that makes sense is still vastly superior to what I've described above.

Many of those RTOS that you so seemingly despise, and summarily dismiss, added a nice bit of reality and depth to the character for me. Those little asides helped cement her in my mind as a more fully-realized character. My first playthrough was with the Witch, and once I freed the Scion I was pleased to have a character that seemed to have some actual personality and thoughts on what was happening around her. instead of the acerbic and occasional quips by the Witch. The Scion seemed more like a character I played alongside, whereas the Witch seemed like a vessel I controlled.

Oh, absolutely, there were some FAAE. No doubt about that. I also felt that there were some bits that succeeded because they drove me to search out clues or writings or to listen to every piece of NPC dialogue because I wanted to understand more. These enticed me to learn more about the backstory and how it affected the current events. I, personally, feel that these attempts at exposition were close enough to a target, even if it was a target that I personally perceived, that they helped cement Wraeclast as a place with history for me; that there was more going on than just the contents of the game.

YMOV (your mileage obviously varies ;-) ).

I just didn't like her accent and whiny, melodramatic delivery. Would still be nice if all the classes vocalized their own insights into the lore and setting.