Fortify implementation was a mistake
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grepman, do not forget Laz's important caveat revarding "respecs." His article is written mostly from the perspective of "final" builds which have their skills set in stone.
Fortify can be "respec'd" fairly easily, all you need is more defense elsewhere and to replace the support with something else. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but can't you use Fortify with a 4L such as Leap Slam? When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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" yes, but thats a part of my point - moveskill + fortify will be the new meta. whirling blades in lockstep is the movement best skill hands down, and it's ridiculously good with fortify I didnt mean fortify is mandatory as a support for main skill, I meant fortify is mandatory to proc off *anything* for melee because they get up and close and they need the mitigation. Last edited by grepman on Jul 6, 2015, 10:19:01 PM
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" You can, it's just not where you want to be for most cases as a ranged. You can either leap onto an errant mob . . . or just shoot them. It's a binary case in the sense that if you're going to be in the midst of a pack anyway, then Fortify is extremely beneficial. If you're ranged, your time is usually better spent kiting and shooting. I expect ranged will still use stand benefit from it, but not really to the same extent that melee will. " I don't see casters using End Cry that much either for 2.0, as it diverts a lot of points from other things they could be doing. And they can only spec into that if they're playing strength caster. Enduring Cry + CWDT + IC was never actually that useful, but I think people felt that it was as a placebo thing. The real power came out of the Echoing IC with investment, where it become mandatory to be physical immune in Alluring Abyss. (And that's getting nerfed.) But outside of that it wasn't really necessary, despite its widespread popularity. I had an armored EK caster. CWDT just seemed dumb for a build that wasn't having trouble with physical damage most of the time and stood at range. Did a bow ranger and it still seemed dumb. Vaal Grace or Conversion Trap was a way better use of slots. So yeah, Laz is sort of right? You can make too much of a statement that all defenses are either used by players or they're not and there's no middle ground. Players will only use as many defenses and offenses as they need? That's not saying anything. Last edited by DeviantLightning on Jul 7, 2015, 12:03:52 AM
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" you dont need any investment whatsoever in EC. one red socket and enough strength to run a mid-level EC. thats it. people will run it if monster damage stays the way it is in the beta, trust me. " IC cant be echoed, you must mean EC echoed for manual cast IC with ID. its not a placebo thing, again it was used by pretty much everyone to 1)mitigate phys bursts and 2)reflect mitigation " people used cwtd+ec+ic+id to replace armour. you will now see way more people take armour in 2.0 " vaal grace or conversion trap wouldnt save you from one-shotting yourself to phys reflect. IC would. and now you have no ondar's to stop that either. " again, that wasnt the statement. the statement was that its really hard to design a good defensive skill that is not either mandatory or useless. the point isnt 'as many defenses as they need'- its precisely that either a player needs ALL defenses they can get or NONE. a player never needs just 'some' defenses. that is the point. I dont necessarily agree with it fully, as I already pointed out PoE has some 'in between' defensive skills that are good imo. but the gist of it is, imo right. d3 (pre-ros) is a great example. it had one cc breaker/invulnerability skill for each class, and it was mandatory at the release. there wasnt a question of 'should I use spirit walk for witch doctor ?' it was made mandatory, and especially so in hardcore. it takes a very good design to design a defensive ability that isnt mandatory, and isnt just fluff in terms of effectiveness. | |
" It's terrible without investment for one simple reason. Your enduring cry is on a longer cooldown than the duration of IC. You have little or no control over when you blow your wad. People imagine this mythical one-shot scenario that never happens. If you're slammed by Vaal, the fire damage kills you. If you're slammed by Dominus, the lightning will kill you. And those things are easy to notice. If you're ranged, you can kite Kole around and shouldn't be one shot with enough life. He attacks slowly. Slowly enough that you can flask to full in the time it takes him to wind up again. The rest of the time you aren't dying to the trash. You see ten mobs run at you. You kill seven mobs as they approach. Three reach you and take their swings. Two miss and one hits. You laugh and kill the remaining three. Oh, and your CWDT popped IC for .7 seconds. Fat lot of good that did you. You need enough duration that you're actually seriously mitigating damage over time, not just surviving this fetishized one-shot everybody keeps talking about. The immunity is only really abusable when you invest in it. (See Alluring Abyss runs.) " I used like 5 armor nodes total. That was enough for 9k armor. Two seconds of invincibility was useless as heck. Particularly as I was leeching. If I didn't leech, then I could just face mash the seething flasks. CWDT was not remotely competitive against any of those things in mundane everyday scenarios. (See above.) " Actually they would. You're dodging yourself or cutting down pack size. Except that those skills are useful for more than reflect. 18 total seconds of dodge cap is useful. Secondly, you're running Ondar's and a Jade, so how the heck were you one-shotting yourself? Reflect is only really an issue in maps now, since it's being heavily modified. And you can still evade yourself, so you still shouldn't be one-shotting yourself. CWDT was completely superfluous to the problem of reflect. " You just said the same thing I did. Laz effectively was saying the same thing I did and greedily overreached for the extreme conclusion. And then promptly gave an examples contradicting himself. He did exactly say that players will stack defense to the point that they won't die. Then just get dps for clear speed or whatever your gated content happens to be. Except the converse is also true: If player death is a real risk, they'll cut down the dps in favor of the mandatory amount of defense. That's a lot tautological nothing. It's about as informative as saying players will get what they need. --------------- Simply put: Fortify sounds great in theory for casters. I just got done watching an Incinerate EB/MoM build for 2.0. And this guy nearly died despite having Blade Whirl Fortify. The idea that it's this complete substitute for armor is as equally as insane as saying CWDT was a replacement for armor (it isn't, see above). And he wasn't using it when he had to dodge around a solo target like Atziri or channel. Where large numbers of adds were concerned, his health still fluctuated erratically. He's basically a giant hp pool that leeches and sometimes procs Fortify. People have this pretty idea of how these buffs work that don't actually shake out in practice. Last edited by DeviantLightning on Jul 7, 2015, 6:22:22 AM
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I play melee. I'll definitely use it, but on the gameplay side it sucks ass. Melee didn't need more defences. Melee needed more DPS, but it didn't get it, instead dps melee chars got a huge nerf.
I'm not playing melee because i want to be defensive, i want to annihilate everything in 1 sec, but with this design its not possible sadly :( | |
" You are just plain wrong. Melee needed defenses, part of the downside of being in melee is that you HAD TO take additional damage. That is now mitigated by fortify. Damage actually was buffed for melee as well, instead of the smaller bonuses they provided when leveling, melee gems actually scale BETTER then on live. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. | |
" Pretty sure melees outright murder everything they touch. In return their AoE coverage is just pathetic. And as a melee, you tend to want to be in the monster's face, that's not always true as an Archer(Wander) and Caster. Once you get a certain level of defenses, have you ever notice it's YOU who's always in an advantageous position when in melee (Except against certain Uniques). https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1394759 - Suggestion for beginner tutorial.
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" Fortify as an implicit property of the "Melee" tag ~[120% / Range*] chance to Fortify on melee attack ~[8 / Range*]s duration 12% less damage received *Where Range is the final weapon range or area of effect of a melee attack. Fortify Support Gem +[1-10]% additional chance to fortify on melee attack +[0.3 - 1.4]s duration [30- 70]% increased effect Devolving Wilds
Land “T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.” |
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"At the end of the day, the only metric which matters is kill speed. Everything else only matters to the extent it effects kill speed. If an enemy attack is going to kill your character, you need to move to avoid it, losing some kill speed, or you die, losing even more kill speed. So if that attack suddenly doesn't kill you anymore, you can choose not to move and attack your enemies instead. Survivability effects movement which effects killspeed. Other than that, survivability is irrelevant. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Jul 7, 2015, 2:27:24 PM
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