Why is PvP wealth-gated while the races aren't?

Why is PvP wealth-gated while the races aren't?

Let's compare the two.

Both are supposed to be competitive, with events held which award different prizes.

Races:
- anyone can participate on equal terms with other players
- don't require any currency investment
- outcome is mostly determined by player racing skill and RNG

PvP
- anyone can participate, but if you don't invest sufficient amount of currency into gear you will almost never win
- competitive gear setups start from 10+ ex for LLD and up to hundreds of ex for HLD, with rare corruptions and 6-links, lvl 4 empowers, etc.
- in most cases outcome is determined by player's gear - if your opponent heavily outclasses you by gear you have no chance of winning, player skill is irrelevant. In some cases there are builds which hard counter the others, in which case you do have a good chance to win with worse gear. Only in rare cases when people with similar gear level meet they can have interesting fights when outcome is not determined before the start of the match.

Many players just say that PoE is an ARPG so there can't be a balanced and fair PvP in it.
They are of course wrong.

Just to name one example how PvP can be made fair:

* An item can be made into PvP-only, which makes it bound to the account (untradeable) and only usable in PvP arenas. A character wearing or having such an item in inventory will simply not be allowed to enter PvE zones by any means.
* A character gets an unlimited supply of currency orbs which can only be used on PvP-only items

This way PvP:
- won't require any currency investment, just like the races. The only investment required would be getting white crafting bases, which literally anyone can do.
- every player can participate on equal terms with other players, as long as they put enough time to craft the gear which they want
- PvP outcome would be largely determined by builds used and player skill, not by gear level

________________

Currently what we have:

* You become better at racing by participating in more races and refining your strategy and skill. You don't even have to play the main game to become better at races.
* You get better at PvP mostly by crafting better gear and grinding PvE content/trading in order to get currency for crafting said gear. Basically, most of the time required to get better at PvP doesn't involve any PvP-related activity.

The question remains - why is it that racing system was designed to be fair from the start (players don't bring their gear from the main game into races), while PvP was designed to be entirely wealth-based, because you do bring your own gear from main game into it, which effectively eliminates a large portion of the playerbase who is not wealthy enough to afford such gear from participation?

________________

Why do I write about this?

Mainly because LLD PvP isn't fun.
At all.

Usually what happens is:
a) You encounter a player whom you outmatch in gear. He has zero chance of winning against you.
b) You encounter a player who outmatches you in gear. You have zero chance to win.

In both cases player skill doesn't matter at all!
Your gear either wins or loses you the match, you are just there along for the ride.
In both cases fighting isn't fun because you know the outcome right from the beginning.

Extremely rarely you encounter players with similar gear level, when you can actually have an interesting duel where player skill does matter.

Also, any new players in LLD will receive extremely negative experience!
Those players don't have access to good gear, and after getting endlessly stomped would likely avoid LLD in the future entirely, further decreasing its mostly non-existent popularity.
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Last edited by Shajirr on Jul 3, 2015, 8:25:59 AM
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I made multiple posts about the state of PvP, and why it disgusts me.
but you can't compare Races to PvP.
they are incomparable, simply because in a Race everyone starts on a level playing field.
you can't do that in PvP.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys on Jul 3, 2015, 5:42:28 AM
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johnKeys wrote:
I made multiple posts about the state of PvP, and why it disgusts me.
but you can't compare Races to PvP.
they are incomparable, simply because in a Race everyone starts on a level playing field.


Exactly! Everyone starts at an even playing field in races!

PvP could have been made like that too, and I gave one example how exactly.

The question is - why wasn't it?
HLD duels are a joke currently considering how few people can actually play and win in them.
Increasing Field of View in PoE: /1236921
Last edited by Shajirr on Jul 3, 2015, 5:43:15 AM
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johnKeys wrote:
I made multiple posts about the state of PvP, and why it disgusts me.
but you can't compare Races to PvP.
they are incomparable, simply because in a Race everyone starts on a level playing field.


Exactly! Everyone starts at an even playing field in races!

PvP could have been made like that too, and I gave one example how exactly.

The question is - why wasn't it?


because PvP is two (or more) players coming into an arena.
so "level playing field" means they all need to have equal terms when they come in.
that's impossible to achieve, beyond a certain early point of a "PvP league", even if that league is completely isolated from the main game.

unlike a Race, you don't have a "starting line" when a match begins.
therefore, you cannot compare the two. it's Apples to Oranges.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys on Jul 3, 2015, 5:46:34 AM
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johnKeys wrote:

so "level playing field" means they all need to have equal terms when they come in.
that's impossible to achieve, beyond a certain early point of a "PvP league", even if that league is completely isolated from the main game.

unlike a Race, you don't have a "starting line" when a match begins.
therefore, you cannot compare the two. it's Apples to Oranges.


You do have a starting line. It is the beginning of the match, or beginning of a PvP event.
Before that, players have effectively unlimited amount of time to prepare their gear.
The main issue that it costs a prohibitive amount of currecy currently.

Also, another example - starting with pre-set gear you can choose from.
This is already done in Descent races, so it is nothing new.
Guild Wars 2 also has some PvP system when players can only use pre-set gear.
Increasing Field of View in PoE: /1236921
there is two version of pvp in such games>

-The competitive pvp where you would earn prices and such.

Like in the descent races I think a set of items given by the game would be better.

Each players could have a same define set of items and flasks and only skills and tree would then be different per players. Then everyone would be at a same advantages and it would be only a matter of skills.




-Sarn arena and random dueling.

Such pvp should be still based on grind and what you been able to get in rare items and uniques.

To make things more interesting the old ear system from D2 could be implemented in the sarn&random dueling version of pvp.

A ranking in the random dueling could be created with the number of kills you did and death.





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HLD duels are a joke currently considering how few people can actually play and win in them.


Hld is a joke only because none of the dev really care about pvp skill balance right now.

But, it is also not completly true you need mirrored gear or op gear to win.

All you have to do to win is to create an explosive arrow or an arc+crit+tempest caster and win 99% of your fights and none of those builds require mirrored gears.


Forum pvp
Last edited by lolozori on Jul 3, 2015, 6:05:07 AM
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lolozori wrote:
there is two version of pvp in such games


And currently we have only one, "Sarn arena and random dueling."
And it is fine for what it does.
Duels have their ladders, as well as PvP events, but since they are all gear-based those ladders show mainly how much people invested into their gear.

I am still waiting that maybe one day an actually fair and competitive PvP system would be made.

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All you have to do to win is to create an explosive arrow or an arc+crit+tempest caster and win 99% of your fights and none of those builds require mirrored gears.


Well this is another issue entirely.
But if the players don't have an even playing field to begin with, what would be the point of balancing certain skills?
Also I am not sure Arc would fair well against max spell block build,
but I never had enough currency for HLD so you probably know a lot more about this.
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Last edited by Shajirr on Jul 3, 2015, 6:10:55 AM
GGG won't ever give you infinite currency for two obvious reasons. First, if players are given millions of rare orbs to craft their gear for pvp, those once precious orbs lose their charm in people's eyes and people won't have the same exciting feeling of finding or using them anymore.

Second, it'll let you find the optimal builds and setups without any effort, which again hurts the longevity of PvE.

You might get pvp with premade characters or very limited amount of currency but don't even think about infinite currency to make the perfect character.
Last edited by Mephisto_n on Jul 3, 2015, 6:15:17 AM
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mephisto_n wrote:
Second, it'll let you find the optimal builds and setups without any effort, which again hurts the longevity of PvE.


How exactly? Viability of a build in PvP has absolutely nothing to do with its viability in PvE, and you won't be allowed to bring a char with PvP gear into regular content.
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