Is this game broken?
" As I tried to explain before, there is more to it than just FPS and GPU usage. PoE's demands are on more than just the GPU. The reason you get frame drops is because of asset loading and other things in addition to the higher graphics demands. PoE also extensively uses more demanding shaders which require loading from drive and then compiling on the GPU. If you are using a lower-end GPU which only has 100 shader cores, you'll have worse performance than someone who has 800 shader cores. Witcher 3 is an amazing game, but it was developed by a AAA studio using a licensed engine and with millions of dollars to throw at it. This is a far cry from PoE and GGG which are indie and don't have the same resources in addition to creating their own engine (non-licensed). You cannot really compare games like that because almost every comparison I've ever seen made is based subjectively and not objectively. To see the true affect, you have to properly benchmark them both and look at ALL the PC components together. You'll find that games like Witcher3 have a certain level of demand, and the demand on the GPU is going to be less than you'd expect... where as the demand on the GPU and other resource for PoE are likely going to be more than you'd expect. | |
"And now just read what you posted: PoE is more GPU-demanding than W3. While PoE's graphics is nowhere near W3 graphics, and that's exactly what I (and OP) am talking about. Also yes, W3 is AAA project and PoE isn't, so please stop pretending that PoE engine is as good as W3's. Because how I see it you are trying to do just that. And worst change is putting almost all bosses in new version of maps into fucking small areas, where you can't kite well or dodge stuff. What a terrible idiot invented that I want say to him: dude flick you, seriously flick you very much.
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" I'm not trying to do that at all.. I'm trying to tell people to NOT compare them. They aren't comparable. It's like comparing Apples and Oranges. They're both fruits, but that's where the comparison ends. PoE and W3 (or "other games") are both games, but that's where the comparison stops. Just because it doesn't LOOK as demanding as other games, doesn't mean it isn't. PoE does have optimization problems. It's part of what makes it more demanding. My overall point is that PoE is more demanding than most "other games". Just because it doesn't look like it, doesn't make it fact. | |
"It is where it stops for you, more on that later. "Oh, that is unquestionable. "Uh, sure. Oranges are orange because they are oranges. "That's what I was saying too, you just somehow fail to admit that while PoE demands are high its graphics are not so high. Instead of that you start blaming OP and me of trying to compare thenm, but you know what? It may be not right to compare gameplay or aesthetics or whatever relative to system requirements but [graphic level to GPU/CPU system requirements] comparisons are totally valid imo. Looks like you're only opposed to such comparisons because the show the crudity of PoEngine. And worst change is putting almost all bosses in new version of maps into fucking small areas, where you can't kite well or dodge stuff. What a terrible idiot invented that I want say to him: dude flick you, seriously flick you very much.
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We're saying similar things, but where we fail to agree is on the performance itself and how it is inaccurate (and quite rude) to compare incomparable software.
While you might not intend it that way, trying to compare PoE to other AAA titles is quite rude and demeaning. Being a software engineer, I understand what goes on in the industry and development specifically. I know what it takes to design an engine and build it from scratch vs purchasing a licensed engine. To attempt to compare PoE to other games in the way it is being compared is basically telling the developers their work is not worth the effort and they would have been better off purchasing their engine.... which just isn't true. It's fine when you want to say how awesome games are, but when you're comparing an INDIE game to a AAA title saying that the indie game isn't as good, you have to understand why and understand that what MOST people are comparing isn't actually comparable. It's completely accurate to compare games that are all using CryEngine or HL engine, or whatever other engine that they both use. You cannot compare BETWEEN engines, and especially not games from multi-million (billion) dollar companies to a low-budget indie developer. So my beef is not with you calling the PoE engine crap, or unoptimized, or anything like that. It's with attempting to compare things which themselves aren't comparable. I also don't appreciate people belittling the developers efforts, but that is a different problem. I could go into all the reasons that GGG creating their own engine is better for the game as a whole, but that is a different topic for a different forum and a different thread. My only ask is that before you go on belittling anyone's efforts or attempting to compare things which are otherwise incomparable, you understand why first... and be OBJECTIVE not SUBJECTIVE. Not liking the way something looks is subjective. Benchmarking performance and comparing data is objective. You're more than welcome to your opinion on your subjectivity, but don't try to pass it off as objective fact. | |
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Can't really figure out what silumit or OP are trying to say?
The game is not as well optimized as bigger titles but GGG is continously working on performance improvements: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/893012 If you perceive PoE as a broken game I suggest to stop playing it, that's all... |
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To answer the initial question, "Yes" the game is broken. It's well-known, though as we can see, there are plenty that try to deny it and invert the situation.
" Or, y'know, not being so horrifically inefficient with the game's RAM. Why is it that, as I've found, disabling the game's audio cuts the RAM usage by the better part of a gigabyte, even on the title screen? I don't even think that the entirety of the game's audio resources can reasonably even take up that much space. " Being a software engineer myself (I dare say you'd be far from alone to claim those credentials!) you're entirely misconstruing the point. The real point is "it's an indie game" isn't allowed to be an excuse for horrifically bloated software... Which is the counterpoint to 99% of the apologists for GGG here; that is about the ONLY excuse that's ever really presented in response to all these points showing just how POOR PoE's performance is. Being an indie game is perhaps a justifiable explanation for a variety of elements that DO cost real money to ever see fruition, such as massive, star-studded voice-acting lineups, gigantic, painstakingly-detailed worlds rather than random-generated areas, show-stopping graphical effects with megabytes of shaders coded just for the purpose, and so on. However "being made not crapily" isn't something that requires huge budgets. It merely requires it being considered important enough to bother with. And guess what? There are comparable indie games that managed to show the same sort of technologically-advanced level of game as PoE can be done with VASTLY better performance. Examples: Most other Diablo-type ARPGs! Torchlight was made by an indie studio, (later bought out) and ran VASTLY better. All it took was pressure within the studio to consider making it perform smoothly, because, as it happens, gameplay is better when the game isn't constantly hiccuping. Rather, instead, we see the opposite here, of what can only be described as a form of laziness: a combination of excuses of "You should just upgrade to a AAA-grade machine to play our not-AAA game" (mostly from devs) and "It's just an indie game!" (mostly from fans) It's an oxymoron: the whole concept of indie games is to be able to cater outside of the mainstream leading-edge... While those with computer hardware at the mainstream leading-edge are going to go for the AAA titles anyway. " This just translates as "Shut up unless you just want to sing praises, regardless of the merits (or lack thereof) present." " Yeah, you can compare their relative performance; if you compare the same sort of scene (from a technological standpoint: a 2048x2049x32bpp texture will impose the same sort of load regardless of the color values of any given texel) and then take that comparable scene between two engines, and see how well it performs in each. This is what, for instance, caught Crysis a lot of flak when it first came out; the original iteration of CryEngine 2 was VERY inefficient. The crowds around it sounded suspiciously like they do here: devs and their most hardcore fans just telling others to "get better hardware." Coincidentally, Crysis Warhead (and later Crysis 2) came out, managed to exceed the original's graphical fidelity while ALSO performing vastly better. The same can be seen here; as I'd mentioned above, take the Torchlight games: a company that has about the comparable level of resources put out a game that, technologically and visually, is about as complex, yet runs better by up to orders of magnitude. " This is pretty much all objective stuff that can easily be quantified and benchmarked: - PoE's scenery is, by far, FAR less complex than seen in typical AAA titles; lower polygon counts, lower texture resolution and usage, fewer shader layers involved. - PoE's performance, compared to other games rendering comparably-complex scenes, is abysmal. Or, if one has difficulty finding "comparable" scenes, just go with even MORE complex scenes, and see that PoE still performs worse. - PoE is pretty unique in terms of how abysmal its performance is. In fact, this distinction stands regardless of what type of studio you consider GGG; plenty of indie games have proven that they can have code FAR more efficient in accomplishing the same sort of tasks. (see again: Torchlight) Rufalius, hybrid Aura/Arc/Mana Guardian | Hemorae, TS Raider | Wuru, Ele Hit Wand Trickster
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You're still missing one major point.
PoE engine was built IN-HOUSE... not using any licensed engines or technologies. While I agree that it is poorly optimized, they did well considering their credentials at the time, etc. They basically took a bunch of computer science graduates and decided to make a game (and a pretty successful/popular one at that). Torchlight (to which you keep referring) used the OGRE engine, which is an open source engine... developed on by MANY people who know engines and know what they're doing. PoE and GGG is more like Asheron's Call and Turbine. Both of them created their own engines with similar results. Turbine learned from their issues with the original Turbine engine powering Asheron's Call and made a better engine which they used for their other games.. AC2, LotRO, DDO. While some of those games are not popular, etc.. that is aside of the engine. I imagine that GGG learned a lot about creating an engine when they made PoE and if they had to do it all over again, they'd likely change a lot of things. I'm not making excuses for them, but I'm trying to get people who aren't technically apt to understand the reasons it is like it is... because I feel that is VERY important. Find another "indie" game that developed their own engine as complex as PoE and did a better job. I'll give you kudos. But you won't likely find one. Even Turbine had publisher funding from Microsoft (so it wasn't indie). Most other indie games use open source engines or licensed engines because they don't have the knowledge or resources in-house. It's one of THE main reasons to not build your own engine. It's not an easy thing to do. As a software engineer, I'm sure you have encountered situations that you didn't know how to solve yourself, and it was hard to find resources to help you. Graphics engines are a very specific field that not a lot of people are familiar with. I've attempted to build engines before and it is a lot harder than I first realized. I never finished it. | |
"Creating their own engine was a mistake. At least from today's standpoint; they surely had their reason then. But it still was a mistake so please don't try to say that we must find someone who did the same mistake but corrected it better than GGG to prove our point. And worst change is putting almost all bosses in new version of maps into fucking small areas, where you can't kite well or dodge stuff. What a terrible idiot invented that I want say to him: dude flick you, seriously flick you very much.
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" That is your opinion. You're free to not play PoE if you don't want to. It is THEIR game, and they make whatever they want. They hopefully make a game a lot of people will play, but ultimately it is their choice. You have zero say in it. I don't think creating your own engine is a mistake. It gives you FULL control over the engine and it removes all need to license an engine or pay license or royalties. In addition to that, not all engines can necessarily do what GGG needs their engine to do to make PoE work. I don't know for certain, but I don't fault them for making their own. It was their choice to make. You have an entitlement mindset it appears. You want it your way, and you want everyone to cater to you. No one is forcing you to play this game. I'm not absolutely certain the beginnings of PoE, but if it is like a lot of indie-type stuff, it started out as a "fun idea" in someone's spare time or as some project they were working on. It gained traction and eventually (through a lot of hard work) came to fruition. They didn't necessarily start the process with the intent to make a popular indie game. It's very common for the humble beginnings to grow into something more. While you think it is a mistake to make their own engine, you weren't there that day. You didn't have a vote. You still don't have a vote. Again, you're welcome to your opinion, and your opinion is it was a mistake. Who cares? Don't like it, don't play it. Arguing in this forum does nothing for anyone. It's not going to make GGG suddenly drop their engine and do it "your way". They aren't going to make you the founder of the company. My intent is to get people to understand. You clearly do not, so it's a waste of time to even continue trying to make you understand... because you won't. I don't know if it is due to stubbornness, or you just don't have the mental faculty to understand their choices. Either way it's getting to be a broken record. You've said your opinion.. many times. None of this is helping in a TECHNICAL SUPPORT forum. As I said before, this belongs in a different forum, different thread, and a different time. If you don't have something to contribute in a TECHNICAL manner, then please take your discussions to the Discussions forum. This is a SUPPORT forum for technical support. |
