Why the "You need more health" paradigm is bad

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BrainHP wrote:

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Wispo wrote:

1) reduce that damn monster damage, way too stupidly high (let's think to magnus that one shots 5k life exiles with 4 charges out of 10 of flameblast, or expecially white mobs phisically hitting for over 2k damage like evangelists and retches with their claws and chimerals) and let defences stay the way they are now

I like to play HC in games where it is possible. Lets talk about 3 deaths I have had recently in 1mHC

Most recent. lvl 78 in a 69 map. 5k EH. Died to invisible Magnus Flameblast. Magnus was not visible as well. Max resists etc. didn't matter. Poof!

Previous. lvl 78 in a 67 crypt. Beyond boss spawns, laggy/desync or whatever. Regain control at the rip screen. Poof!

Cruel Docks. Overleveled, but not sure by how much. Desync about 2 and a half screens away into a corner of a landing I never visited in my client. Already surrounded by mobs and dead. Poof!

I want the game to kill me fair and square. I take all the life nodes I can, foregoing damage in pursuit of safety. I haven't made many friends in this game, and the trade system is really terrible so 99% self-found. I farm zones till I way overlevel them. Slow and safe, not efficient at all. I spend loads of currency rolling flasks with just the right affixes.

I want the game to kill me fair and square.

Dying to bugs and bullshit internet issues makes me want to just stop playing.

Dying to real mechanics because I screwed up makes me want to play more.

Dying because I screwed up by just playing the game in the first place....


C'mon GGG, make me feel like I am making real choices in my builds, and when I die make me feel like I was overpowered by badass monsters by being reckless. Give me the power fantasy of creating a crazy badass character who wrecks the little baby monsters with a whisper and cowers in fear of the big zone bosses.

And this is BAD game design. In titan quest, a game far better than poe, it was possible to survive 90% of mobs (not in difficulty mods obviously) even with poor life. The secret of this? The presence of OTHERS forms of VIABLE defenses over stacking life.

1) defensive ability/dodge attacks + dodge projectiles (=heavy investment, but at the end immune to melee and ranged attacks, still vulnerable to aoe... balanced because no immortality, but a CHOICE possible for the player if he fears more aimed attacks)

2) damage absorption (no heavy investment, very good defense against ALL attacks, but no immunity to even one of them... balanced again, and again A VIABLE CHOICE)

3) damage reduction against monsters races (undead, beastmen, demons etc): possible immunity to damage of certain races, nearly oneshotted by others. Again, balanced and a choice.

And here in poe? Well, we have armour and diminishing returns... and we have evasion whos percentual goes down of 1% at every level up. Wow... just.... WOW -.-

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Wispo wrote:

And this is BAD game design. In titan quest, a game far better than poe, it was possible to survive 90% of mobs (not in difficulty mods obviously) even with poor life. The secret of this? The presence of OTHERS forms of VIABLE defenses over stacking life.

1) defensive ability/dodge attacks + dodge projectiles (=heavy investment, but at the end immune to melee and ranged attacks, still vulnerable to aoe... balanced because no immortality, but a CHOICE possible for the player if he fears more aimed attacks)

2) damage absorption (no heavy investment, very good defense against ALL attacks, but no immunity to even one of them... balanced again, and again A VIABLE CHOICE)

3) damage reduction against monsters races (undead, beastmen, demons etc): possible immunity to damage of certain races, nearly oneshotted by others. Again, balanced and a choice.

And here in poe? Well, we have armour and diminishing returns... and we have evasion whos percentual goes down of 1% at every level up. Wow... just.... WOW -.-

The worst will be in A4 with all increased buffed dmg monsters and new higher maps with less defense.

Bow will get no more desync and can dodge everything and oneshot mostly all, but casters and melee will stuck hard.

And agreed with you about The presence of OTHERS forms of VIABLE defenses, well said.

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Wispo wrote:

we have evasion whos percentual goes down of 1% at every level up

Just a minor correction here:

Your chance to evade does NOT go down as you level. The listed chance to evade decreases because it's being calculated against a theoretical monster of your level. However, currently normal mobs do not reach levels above 79-80 (I'm sure bosses are higher, but I don't know exactly what level each is, or how that's calculated based on map level). So if you're a 90+ toon, your actual chance to hit and chance to evade are higher against most enemies you're actually fighting - don't be fooled by changing character screen info as you level!

In Act 4 we'll have higher level maps, where mobs are actually closer in level to the player (and bosses, again, will be even closer if not beyond player levels). The numbers in the character screen will be more accurate in this case.

Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong in all of the above!

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TreeOfDead wrote:

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Wispo wrote:

And this is BAD game design. In titan quest, a game far better than poe, it was possible to survive 90% of mobs (not in difficulty mods obviously) even with poor life. The secret of this? The presence of OTHERS forms of VIABLE defenses over stacking life.

1) defensive ability/dodge attacks + dodge projectiles (=heavy investment, but at the end immune to melee and ranged attacks, still vulnerable to aoe... balanced because no immortality, but a CHOICE possible for the player if he fears more aimed attacks)

2) damage absorption (no heavy investment, very good defense against ALL attacks, but no immunity to even one of them... balanced again, and again A VIABLE CHOICE)

3) damage reduction against monsters races (undead, beastmen, demons etc): possible immunity to damage of certain races, nearly oneshotted by others. Again, balanced and a choice.

And here in poe? Well, we have armour and diminishing returns... and we have evasion whos percentual goes down of 1% at every level up. Wow... just.... WOW -.-

The worst will be in A4 with all increased buffed dmg monsters and new higher maps with less defense.

Bow will get no more desync and can dodge everything and oneshot mostly all, but casters and melee will stuck hard.

And agreed with you about The presence of OTHERS forms of VIABLE defenses, well said.

Thanks for your agree with me :) Hoping that i can go a little off topic only for this time, i show to you all a video of me playing an increased difficulty mod (called "Achilles mod") of Titan quest, 3 years ago. Althought the difficulty mod (that mod was meant to be played by 4 players at the same time), i took damage yes (those mobs with a star on the head, were the counterpart of PoE yellow/rares), but i survived... and thanks to the famous OTHER FORMS OF >>>VIABLE<<< DEFENCES (in this particular case: damage reduction against beastmen).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRzGYPL2k4I

This, at the sole purpose of showing how an end game, HARD BUILDED toon SHOULD behave defense wise. THIS is a defense!!!! Not that of PoE, where in high level maps, even the most stupid of blue zombies halves your life with a single arm swing!!!!

Side note: after 8 years, i'm STILL searching for the perfect defence in Titan quest... so this means that it DOESN'T EXISTS. So, i will simply laugh if some "ggg's lawyer" will come and tell me "OP!!! UNBALANCED"!!! Because i must still pay attention to certain mobs.

THIS is balancing: giving the player some CONSISTENT >>>REWARDS<<< for his efforts (ggg, search the word REWARD on wikipedia!!!), but WITHOUT granting immortality.

If someone doesn't agree with this.. well, free to return to be nearly oneshotted at lvl 80 by some SINGLE blue Roha that crits...

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demon9675 wrote:

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Wispo wrote:

we have evasion whos percentual goes down of 1% at every level up

Just a minor correction here:

Your chance to evade does NOT go down as you level. The listed chance to evade decreases because it's being calculated against a theoretical monster of your level. However, currently normal mobs do not reach levels above 79-80 (I'm sure bosses are higher, but I don't know exactly what level each is, or how that's calculated based on map level). So if you're a 90+ toon, your actual chance to hit and chance to evade are higher against most enemies you're actually fighting - don't be fooled by changing character screen info as you level!

In Act 4 we'll have higher level maps, where mobs are actually closer in level to the player (and bosses, again, will be even closer if not beyond player levels). The numbers in the character screen will be more accurate in this case.

Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong in all of the above!

Thanks but i knew these things :) I was hyronical as to say: "even this defense is semi useless" (=i would have fear to go against a pack of chimerals with a poor life-eva exile :/ )

This whole thread is a painful read.

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Wispo wrote:

And here in poe? Well, we have armour and diminishing returns... and we have evasion whos percentual goes down of 1% at every level up. Wow... just.... WOW -.-

You clearly have no idea how things like evasion work. And if you love that other game so much more than PoE, then what are you doing wasting your time over here?

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TimeDilation wrote:

This whole thread is a painful read.

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Wispo wrote:

And here in poe? Well, we have armour and diminishing returns... and we have evasion whos percentual goes down of 1% at every level up. Wow... just.... WOW -.-

You clearly have no idea how things like evasion work. And if you love that other game so much more than PoE, then what are you doing wasting your time over here?

Well said he completely ignores layered defenses for some reason, in PoE you are required to layer defenses and he refuses to acknowledge that.

He bashes life, yet plays an ES character which has a much higher player skill cap level because you remove the ability to use life flask to instantly heal.

He bashes evasion, but has no idea how it works.

He bashes armor just because everyone else does, I've said its changed in beta he hasn't acknowledge that.

He doesn't use CWDT, IC, IC, ID on his character and complained he died to a strongbox with substantial physical damage.

He refuses to acknowledged that every single ARPG i've ever played and seen uses a life based mechanic as a way to control character defenses, of course you need to have other forms of defenses as you can't just stack life and expect to live if you have no resistance or armor\evasion\block, at a certain point you will be overwhelmed by damage.

I still don't understand why he plays an ES character that has no armor, no physical mitigation, no block, spell block, no ability to use instant health flask as a player that obviously seems confused on game defenses. There is a reason why the majority of people play a life based build and that is because its easier to gear and play around, I wish he would not bash life builds (this is a life thread after all) when he clearly isn't playing one and taking advantage of those benefits.

Put it closer in perspective for you @wispo, you are playing a pure ES character, ideally you cast from far away and take yourself out of risk, you know you have no armor, no evasion, no block, no cwdt, no acro, you will get hit and get hit hard, because the game has to be balanced for layered defenses, you refuse to acknowledged that.

If you were playing a life character you could go acro\phase, if you don't want to play around that you don't have to. You could play life based character with MoM, but if you want you don't have to play around that. You could play a life caster with armor or evasion, your gear can provide you with armor or evasion instead of the ES value you are currently being provided with, while the gear rolls life. This helps significantly vs hits you deem too powerful like evangelist. You could, even with your current character run CWDT, IC, EC, ID which would be the best thing to improve your character's defenses, but you choose not to. This combo becomes less effective after Act 4 hits, but I urge you to play with it in standard before it does to see how powerful it is.

Most importantly life flask provide you with a much larger effective pool, especially with instant flask, but you completely remove that when you play an ES build. ES builds should be reserved for players that have a good knowledge of defensive mechanics and play safer and different then life based builds.

I don't feel like playing titan quest in order to prove his logic is extremely flawed, but I have the game and if he can admit he is wrong I would consider playing it. I watched the video it appears its a combination of high armor and life regen to why he isn't deing, but I also don't know too much about the mechanics of that game.

The things about a4 are blatantly false, if anything, dps buffs are in the favor of the player now, even when monsters do more damage.

And overall, that's after monsters were nerfed, followed by player buffs to base life and adjustments to reflect. If anything, crit builds are much easier to pull off because of this.

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DeviantLightning wrote:

The things about a4 are blatantly false, if anything, dps buffs are in the favor of the player now, even when monsters do more damage.

And overall, that's after monsters were nerfed, followed by player buffs to base life and adjustments to reflect. If anything, crit builds are much easier to pull off because of this.

What things about A4, be specific please.

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TimeDilation wrote:

This whole thread is a painful read.

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Wispo wrote:

And here in poe? Well, we have armour and diminishing returns... and we have evasion whos percentual goes down of 1% at every level up. Wow... just.... WOW -.-

You clearly have no idea how things like evasion work. And if you love that other game so much more than PoE, then what are you doing wasting your time over here?

If this thread is a painful read, so.... what are you doing wasting your time over here? ;) I know well that aspect of evasion, it was only a joke talking for ironically saying---> EVEN EVASION IS SHIT, TOO.

Whatever... you are free to lose your 10% exp for being oneshotted by some yellow devourer popping out of nowhere, or by some chimerals pack that stack in a millisecond on your head from offscreen ;) But not because youe ideas differs from mine, i will tell you to shut up like a ggg lawyer do. EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO EXPRESS HIS OPINIONS

Oh, side note: in that video i shown, i was nowhere near 40% of max health reachable in titan quest (average over 10k). This thanks to something that in poe DOESN'T EXIST---> VIABLE DEFENCES.

Now i want to see an exile with less than 40% of average life (let's say 2k life, 40% of 5k) being actually HITTED (and hitted like me in that video BY TOP END GAME CONTENT), because manually avoiding doesn't count toward saying "this game has good defences", and surviving multiple blows.

Oh, and if someone claim to be expert... well that someone must be expert of the forum, too, right? So surely he have read in the distant and recent past of someone ripped at lvl 90 against lvl 70 mobs ;)

Less blinbly defending GGG, MORE INTELLECTUAL HONESTY, PLEASE!!!