Plz buff Kaoms Heart back to 1000.

"

Sickness wrote:

No it doesn't mean that, because the same would apply if it only had 1 HP instead of 500. Then not even you would say that it's in the right place. An item can be not better than a T1 rare and still be far from being in the right place.

Keep in mind I haven't specified how large the 'place' was, a Mexican that crossed the border would consider himself in the right place :)

However, the item doesn't have 1 life and it doesn't really need much to be popular again, so there's no need for hyperboles from either of us.

"

Sickness wrote:

I don't agree that it has ever been fine since it was nerfed. But lets say it was at first. You need to compare it to your totalt health and not directly to a T1 rare items health. And if you do that you quickly find that the value of the 500 health on it has gone down, especially considering the opportunity costs.

Yes, I was saying that a few pages ago, base life point lost a third of its value since v1.0 so it's a bit closer to other stats but that's a global issue. We compare apples to apples here so I'd consider raising flat life on Kaom only if we get higher life rolls on rares and try to fix it in other ways if not.

"

Sickness wrote:

So your first two points are invalid and your third point is just an agreement that it should be buffed. That's great!

It's no marriage proposal to be sure, but it isn't that bad either. First one is a matter of overview, second is pretty much stating the obvious and the third is a matter of preference. You're asking to overpower the drawback and I would prefer reducing it.

"

raics wrote:

* First one is that, according to devs a stat-stick unique should never be better than a well-rolled rare, no matter the rarity. And Kaom currently isn't better which means it's in the right place, that wasn't the case once so it got nerfed. If you got any beef with that, take it to the devs, it's their design choice.

No. GGG had intended for unique items to be quite literal; unique items. They provide something that rare items do not. They aren't supposed to be better or worse than any rare, for any reason. They're simply supposed to enable gameplay. Shavronne's Wrappings is the only chest that prevents damage from going to your life directly.

So if we want to argue that they are better, we can. But only for the builds that abuse them. That's why I was never talking about Kaom's being literally better than any rare, I was being figurative.

There is NO build that needs 300 life more than a rare, when that rare offers so many more things. The drawback to Kaom's is so painful that the life it gives is not a good trade for ANY build.

Shavronne's Wrappings can get by without any ES, because you can run auras to compensate for the lost ES. Kaom's not only gimps you out of rare mods, but also sockets.

This is why I'm telling you to read.

"

raics wrote:

* Second one is that amount of life on it is fine. That's because five times higher life roll than a T1 rare was fine in 1.0, life on rares remained the same so it's still fine.

* Third one is that sockets, resists and high defense became more valuable over time, especially now that more people stack armor or hybrid arm/eva. I agreed that Kaom's drawback is a bit too much at the moment and that giving it more stats you would look for on a rare chest would be preferable than trying to overpower it with a ridiculously high life roll. Sockets cannot be touched because that's its defining feature.

Not when it takes six sockets, res, and other mods rares can have and when you have another unique that gives more. Belly of the Beast can give 400-500. A level 80 will have 998 life, so BotB will give 399 from that alone. Not to mention it stacks multiplicatively with other life on other gear. Assuming you have 75 on all other possible gear slots (600, if you use a shield), it'll add 240 from that. A total of 639.

That's the second point I made. Kaom's has absolutely NO value. BotB gives more life and gives you six socket potential.

Making something usable can be done in numerous ways. Making something desirable can be done in different ways. Kaom's is neither usable nor desirable. What's the difference?

GGG nerfs Botb: Kaom's becomes usable, though only in very few and select instances. The value of BotB would have to be 10% max life or something.

GGG buffs Kaom's Heart: Kaom's can become usable and desirable. Though this is the better option, it is much harder to balance out. I personally think it should be brought back to the 1k life since a level 100 character would have 1,238 life before any modifiers. BotB would add 495 from that alone. Add in the fact that BotB gives 50% more life from flasks and six sockets, 600, 750, and other amounts of base life wouldn't compare to it.

But we all know GGG just makes the problem worse by nerfing what is fine instead of buffing what isn't fine.

BotB with Meginord's Girdle is just insane for life.

Your average life build has ~150% increased maximum life, so Kaom's is giving you an additonal ~600 total life compared to Belly. Still not worth it for most builds, but for some like RF this may be worth it.

This is more that Belly is extremely powerful in the current metagame. I'm not sure that it's too powerful, but its without a doubt strong. It lets a build get away with only ~100% increased life on the tree which is crazy useful for a glass cannon.

Most Balanced Unique in PoE in 1.3

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

What would you say?
Bonus/s and downside/s.




As silly as it is, I'm gonna go with Legacy Kaom's Heart.

"

Natharias wrote:

No. GGG had intended for unique items to be quite literal; unique items. They provide something that rare items do not. They aren't supposed to be better or worse than any rare, for any reason. They're simply supposed to enable gameplay. Shavronne's Wrappings is the only chest that prevents damage from going to your life directly.

We have two major types of uniques in this game, stat sticks and build enablers. Shav or Myolner are a great example of build enablers, their stats suck but they have special properties to make up for it, you usually don't consider their raw strength (especially evident with Lorica), just what they are capable of.

On the other hand you got stat stick items like Belly, Kaom, Catalyst or Searing Touch, those need to be compared to rares because they offer similar things, sometimes with an addition of a slightly uncommon mod. They also come in two subtypes, levelling uniques and endgame uniques. Of the two, endgame uniques are able to end up with best in slot status and devs have clearly stated they do not want that to happen.

Sometimes you also get a borderline case, which was Soul Taker. It's technically a build enabler but it was too strong so people were using it as an endgame stat stick. Once they nerfed it, ST became just a build enabler for high cost melee skills like Dominating Blow or Ele Hit. Unfortunately, resource management is so trivialized in PoE that nobody wants to use it for that.

Personally, I'm for nerfing Belly by half first, like I said before, it was four passive points and now it's eight, that's way too much even if we exclude travel tax. And I'm also for buffing Kaom, but in some other way because I don't want to see the 'one stat trumps everything' situation again.

"

raics wrote:

We have two major types of uniques in this game, stat sticks and build enablers. Shav or Myolner are a great example of build enablers, their stats suck but they have special properties to make up for it, you usually don't consider their raw strength (especially evident with Lorica), just what they are capable of.

What do you mean by "stat stick", that the unique simply has a higher value than a rare mod?

That's still enabling. As mentioned countless times, BotB can allow a life build to skip out on 40% increased life to get more damage, more defenses, aura nodes, etc. It frees up points. It enables.

The few uniques that don't enable something absolutely SUCK.

"

raics wrote:

On the other hand you got stat stick items like Belly, Kaom, Catalyst or Searing Touch, those need to be compared to rares because they offer similar things, sometimes with an addition of a slightly uncommon mod. They also come in two subtypes, levelling uniques and endgame uniques. Of the two, endgame uniques are able to end up with best in slot status and devs have clearly stated they do not want that to happen.

Please don't go into leveling uniques. That isn't the debate here.

If GGG really didn't want uniques to have "best in slot status" at the "end game", then why does Shavronne's Wrappings exist? What about Astramentis? Eye of Chayula?

So I'm calling bullshit, even if someone from GGG said that. If a unique enables something, then it will always be BiS for that build.

Now if you're talking BiS generally, that's also getting off topic like leveling uniques. It's not anywhere near what I'm talking about. I can't think of any uniques that are BiS for any build, and there shouldn't be.

"

raics wrote:

Sometimes you also get a borderline case, which was Soul Taker. It's technically a build enabler but it was too strong so people were using it as an endgame stat stick. Once they nerfed it, ST became just a build enabler for high cost melee skills like Dominating Blow or Ele Hit. Unfortunately, resource management is so trivialized in PoE that nobody wants to use it for that.

No. You can completely skip out on mana regen nodes if you're willing to use a weaker weapon. That's compensated by allocating more damage nodes.

So Soul Taker was put in its rightful spot.

"

raics wrote:

Personally, I'm for nerfing Belly by half first, like I said before, it was four passive points and now it's eight, that's way too much even if we exclude travel tax. And I'm also for buffing Kaom, but in some other way because I don't want to see the 'one stat trumps everything' situation again.

So you want to nerf Shavronne's Wrappings? It's got the one mod that does it all and nobody cares about the other mods.

BotB should stay where it is. If it only gives 20% max life, then what life builds are going to use it? Right now 150% life is required. 20% isn't that much in passive points, so any rare chest or other unique chest will give you more (since res on chest means you can skip on res on rings and boots or gloves). 40% is fine, even if it is eight points.

How many points would you allocate to "chaos damage doesn't bypass energy shield"? 100?

The amount of passives a unique frees up has little value in and of itself, unless that is what it is meant to do. BotB frees up a whole life circle, if not two. That's its enabling feature.

That's why the only change that should happen is Kaom's getting a buff.

"

raics wrote:
Sometimes you also get a borderline case, which was Soul Taker. It's technically a build enabler but it was too strong so people were using it as an endgame stat stick. Once they nerfed it, ST became just a build enabler for high cost melee skills like Dominating Blow or Ele Hit. Unfortunately, resource management is so trivialized in PoE that nobody wants to use it for that.

"

No. You can completely skip out on mana regen nodes if you're willing to use a weaker weapon. That's compensated by allocating more damage nodes.

So Soul Taker was put in its rightful spot.

But its not really, people don't want to fuck with mana management anymore so they bloodmagic the skill and reserve all mana as auras, which means using soultaker is pointless, its DPS was nerfed WAY TOO HARD.

The 2 hardest nerfs GGG has ever done was Kaoms heart and soul taker, if they would have adjusted life % back then to what it is now they would have never of needed to nerf it. If they would have added the mana on hit nodes, %increased mana and other nodes now on the tree they would have never of needed to nerf soultaker, now both T1 unqiues sit at a value of under 10ex, that to me is unacceptable and proof these items have no place in the game with the current "shit" stats they have.

I can't think of any other unqiues that have been hit as hard as these two or at least hit as hard and not justified.

This thread should be please buff kaoms heart and soul taker, not just kaoms heart.

"

Natharias wrote:

What do you mean by "stat stick", that the unique simply has a higher value than a rare mod?

It's the usual term for a unique item that doesn't offer anything truly unique, just the usual stats you can find on regular items, the amount may or may not be unusual.

"

Natharias wrote:

That's still enabling. As mentioned countless times, BotB can allow a life build to skip out on 40% increased life to get more damage, more defenses, aura nodes, etc. It frees up points. It enables.

That's a very fresh outlook on build enabling, fortunately, devs do not share it. Belly is a stat stick unique in every possible sense.

"

Natharias wrote:

Please don't go into leveling uniques. That isn't the debate here.

If GGG really didn't want uniques to have "best in slot status" at the "end game", then why does Shavronne's Wrappings exist? What about Astramentis? Eye of Chayula?

So I'm calling bullshit, even if someone from GGG said that. If a unique enables something, then it will always be BiS for that build.

Of course not, I mentioned levelling uniques for educational purposes, we're talking about endgame stat sticks here.

Shav and Lorica are there for the same thing, to enable low life builds, you can't really build a functional LL without them these days although it was possible once. Astramentis is a perfect example of a stat stick unique, I don't think we got a better example. Chayula is a type of build enabler, it doesn't flip the on/off switch but spares it from doing something impractical that could compromise its functionality.

"

Natharias wrote:

I can't think of any uniques that are BiS for any build, and there shouldn't be.

Think harder.

"

Natharias wrote:

So you want to nerf Shavronne's Wrappings? It's got the one mod that does it all and nobody cares about the other mods.

How many points would you allocate to "chaos damage doesn't bypass energy shield"? 100?

BotB should stay where it is. If it only gives 20% max life, then what life builds are going to use it? Right now 150% life is required. 20% isn't that much in passive points, so any rare chest or other unique chest will give you more (since res on chest means you can skip on res on rings and boots or gloves). 40% is fine, even if it is eight points.

I don't think nerfing Shav would accomplish anything, we already have a Shav version with shit stats and people use it until they can afford the real thing. Once you get a Shav it just means more ES.

Obviously, it's impossible to quantificate 'chaos does not bypass ES' with points, it doesn't exist on passive tree. For reference, I'm putting 'cannot be stunned' at 20 points, but it has -20% life which is 4 points less and has no other stats to speak of, a well balanced item overall. However, 'mind over matter' is good for at least 15 points on average, however it also has properties that heavily synergize with the keystone so it's on the strong side, I'd nerf it some more personally.

It's important to note the difference between Belly and Chayula or CoD even though it's possible to put a point cost on either. The belly enables you to not do something your archetype would normally do, which is stack life nodes and Chayula enables you to skip on something you wouldn't normally do, which is visit Mara area as an ES caster. In real life terms, Belly enables you to slack off on your normal workload, and Chayula spares you the overtime.

Feel free to condense the post if replying, find some universal message or whatever, I won't take it as acknowledging the points.

"

goetzjam wrote:

This thread should be please buff kaoms heart and soul taker, not just kaoms heart.

Hell, I could think of a whole bunch of uniques I'd like to see improved in some way.

"

This thread should be please buff kaoms heart and soul taker, not just kaoms heart.

"

Hell, I could think of a whole bunch of uniques I'd like to see improved in some way.

Me too, but this thread isn't about all unqiues and buffs needed its specifically about one T1 unqiue that was dumpstered in the day and has became less valuable overtime because of changes GGG has made. The problem wasn't that these unqiues were too strong necessarily its that they didn't forsee changes that would make them less powerful over time, so instead of nerfing the items thru tree adjustments they shit on these unqiues, we've seen GGG tone back the nerf hammer since then to be smaller adjustments, but these ones were hit way too hard back then, kicked while they were down (constant changes) and left them out to dry.

These were hit too hard that patch and should be buffed IMO:

Facebreaker
Kaom Heart
Soul Taker
Thunderfist

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

This thread should be please buff kaoms heart and soul taker, not just kaoms heart.

"

Hell, I could think of a whole bunch of uniques I'd like to see improved in some way.

Me too, but this thread isn't about all unqiues and buffs needed its specifically about one T1 unqiue that was dumpstered in the day and has became less valuable overtime because of changes GGG has made. The problem wasn't that these unqiues were too strong necessarily its that they didn't forsee changes that would make them less powerful over time, so instead of nerfing the items thru tree adjustments they shit on these unqiues, we've seen GGG tone back the nerf hammer since then to be smaller adjustments, but these ones were hit way too hard back then, kicked while they were down (constant changes) and left them out to dry.

These were hit too hard that patch and should be buffed IMO:

Facebreaker
Kaom Heart
Soul Taker
Thunderfist

Well, they did say in the interview that a bunch of outdated uniques will be revisited soon, maybe Kaom will get some care too.

I'll repeat myself here, but I don't think Kaom needs all that much to compete for the slot. Personally, I would like to see it on builds that must use a lot of uniques, but not on every single life build out there. Uniques generally have low life rolls or none so it would do much to cover for the deficiency, that's the main reason I suggested giving resists to Kaom as it's another thing they lack.

...
I agree about Thunderfist, but Facebookers got a significant indirect buff. It's a pretty strong and very cheap build currently and I assume devs want to be careful about items that let you skip weapon progression, this is a trading game after all.