Legacy items are bullshit

Legacies area red herring for balance problems that are really the result of the often unexpected ways game mechanics interact, thus enabling OP builds. Non-legacy versions of uniques still enable OP builds... and many seemingly straightforward build concepts wind up being kinda useless endgame.

Additionally, gimmicky defenses (which are also enabled by certain uniques) tend to be better than simply stacking the game's basic ones (which the exception of life, although a build needs more than JUST life). Some skills suck, some item mods suck, some enemies have crazy spike damage, etc etc.

All of these flaws, which folks have talked about at great length in these forums, are a much greater threat to game balance than legacies.

Now, on the economic side, legacies are overpriced collectibles. But the weird nature of the Standard economy, where almost everything is dirt-cheap while certain legacies and mirrored rares are prohibitively expensive and stuff in the middle just gets vended so it's not even available for purchase, is again not the fault of legacies.

Legacies are an easy thing for everyone to bash, but PoE's REAL problems are more fundamental and nobody really has a solution for them at this point.

I know I'm not being incredibly specific here, but in my defense I should be working anyway.

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Sickness wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Still holds here. If you don't want people's items to change, why nerf in Standard at all?

If you answer like GGG and say "balance," that's hypocrisy.

There is no hypocrisy. You don't want people's items to change, but sometimes the positive effects of doing so outweighs the negative effect.

1. A policy which is generally true but which has exceptions is still false during an exception. By which I mean: if you believe the positives of change outweigh the negatives, then you want people's items to change, and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise. (For clarification, I don't know which choice is the right one for most items, while holding strong opinions on a few such as Kaom's Heart.)
2. It isn't as simple as justifying nerfing items. It isn't as simple as justifying not nerfing items. To defend the legacy item policy, one must justify nerfing the items which will belong to one subset of the playerbase, while simultaneously justifying not nerfing identical copies of items which belong to a different subset of the playerbase. A justification of "balance" fails utterly, because its self-contradiction is obvious; one cannot honestly declare something is too powerful to be allowed in a particular league, while simultaneously allowing it to remain in that league.

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demon9675 wrote:

Legacies are an easy thing for everyone to bash, but PoE's REAL problems are more fundamental and nobody really has a solution for them at this point.

I agree! The reason I made this thread, however, was that I was alarmed by the sentiment that legacy items were a good thing. They are not. Now, are they the biggest problem in the game right now? Not top 5, anyway, and even top 10 is a bit of a stretch. Bigger fish to fry (hurray for lockstep!).

All I am trying to say is they are bullshit and it would be nice if they were gone.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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demon9675 wrote:

Legacies are an easy thing for everyone to bash, but PoE's REAL problems are more fundamental and nobody really has a solution for them at this point.

I agree! The reason I made this thread, however, was that I was alarmed by the sentiment that legacy items were a good thing. They are not. Now, are they the biggest problem in the game right now? Not top 5, anyway, and even top 10 is a bit of a stretch. Bigger fish to fry (hurray for lockstep!).

All I am trying to say is they are bullshit and it would be nice if they were gone.

My debt is bullshit and I wish it was gone too, that doesn't change the fact its in the game.

Like I said before this topic was made for no other reason then circle jerk without any conclusion.

In general

A) I have legacy items they are fun don't take them away.
B) I dont have I can't ever get
C) I have and don't care because i play in temp leagues.
D) I dont have, but I can get if I work

E) Technical reasons so why are you posting this with no conclusion in end

Why not post a more intuitive thread like I know you can post and address points from your previous poe 2.0 thread, compared to experience in beta and what else you can see GGG doing to improve the game. Instead you seem focused on this small issue that won't get resolved just because you think it needs to.

The zeal is real.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

There is no hypocrisy. You don't want people's items to change, but sometimes the positive effects of doing so outweighs the negative effect.

1. A policy which is generally true but which has exceptions is still false during an exception. By which I mean: if you believe the positives of change outweigh the negatives, then you want people's items to change, and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise. (For clarification, I don't know which choice is the right one for most items, while holding strong opinions on a few such as Kaom's Heart.)

Okay, let me rephrase myself:
You ackowledge that changing peoples items have negative effect, but sometimes the positive effects of doing so outweighs said negative.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It isn't as simple as justifying nerfing items. It isn't as simple as justifying not nerfing items. To defend the legacy item policy, one must justify nerfing the items which will belong to one subset of the playerbase, while simultaneously justifying not nerfing identical copies of items which belong to a different subset of the playerbase. A justification of "balance" fails utterly, because its self-contradiction is obvious; one cannot honestly declare something is too powerful to be allowed in a particular league, while simultaneously allowing it to remain in that league.

There is no contradiction. Allowing peoples items to remain is not the same as allowing them to keep dropping. They have different effects on balance, and nerfing them for one subest of players have different implications than nerfing them for a different subset of players.

Heh... thread's still going.

I don't follow your attack on people's ability to be logical. Logical would be continuing something that either fits with your game design or doesn't impact on your revenue. Some of us presume GGG's reason for doing what they've done is both. They've clearly read every argument you, and others make, many times before Scrotie.

I used the word presume advisedly, because neither you nor I have numbers to support the position that changing legacy items would have a net positive effect on either of the aspects I've mentioned (unless you secretly work for GGG).

The use of the word 'balance' in a game like this continues to offend me. It's not possible to 'balance' once you reach a certain level of complexity. For example, is the ability to convert a npc to fight for you equal to or better than the ability trap a monster in place, and by how much? Is a kinetic blast worth more or less than either of those abilities, and by how much?

What you do is what GGG is doing - you tweak and hope for the best. Not sit around dreaming of maths ;) Anyhow, presumably like you I'm mostly using this thread to alleviate boredom!

Any word on a fix yet?

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Soulsniper wrote:

Any word on a fix yet?

A fix for what? It's working as intended. Some people just can't get past it and enjoy the game.

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mark1030 wrote:

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Soulsniper wrote:

Any word on a fix yet?

A fix for what? It's working as intended. Some people just can't get past it and enjoy the game.

If so, the intent is hypocritical bullshit. If not, incompetent bullshit.

But I already explained that much.

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mark1030 wrote:

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Soulsniper wrote:

Any word on a fix yet?

A fix for what? It's working as intended. Some people just can't get past it and enjoy the game.

That's a shame, was looking forward to 1.4 but I guess I'll check back in a few months again.