Whip weapon - possible mechanics

Topic made for disscusion of possible mechanic for whip. Below suggestions from other thread:

"
Alex_Lied wrote:
"
Richard_skull wrote:
(...)And while I'm rambling, I always wanted an aRPG with whips, and I know the creators of this game could come up with some cool whip active skills (you know for ice cream, I keed).


(...)

About the whip it sounds pretty interesting idea but I am not really sure how to fit it. Dex/Int based weapon for shadow ? Melee with quite long range, small attack but with bleeding and knockback/slower movements effect ? It would be similar to claws in stats but rather than depending on leaching it would help to keep enemies at distance.
Hmm....


"
B34C0N wrote:
Crossbow? Guns? pff

Whips! Think about it:

+13 Melee range.

Attributes: Strenght, Dexterity.

-Dual wielding whips / Whip + Shields / Whip + Spiked bundle
-Spiked bundle increases range passively by 10.
-18% Increased Critical strike chance
-Unique - Chair - increases whip whipping trippin' and blocking chance by 50%.

*Can't be used or mixed with Swords, claws, knifes, daggers.


Edit: After checking forum it's not really new idea. But maybe some new people or someone who didn't read others threads concerning this matter, would want to share their thoughts.
Last edited by Alex_Lied on Apr 18, 2015, 7:47:55 AM
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One word: Whirlwind.
IGN Stuns_McNutshot | Ichimans_McIchimans | Balls_McCritterson
Reddit related topic

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/25wupc/i_wish_there_were_more_shields_like_the_spiked/

Spiked bundle + Whips usage:

Pros:
-Spiked Bundle would have a more interesting impact in the game (+10 melee range if using a Whip in your main hand).
-Brand new mixture of stats (for Spiked Bundle, making it provide a fresh gameplay experience).
-Window for maybe a Unique Spiked Bundle recipe. (orb of chance baby!)


Cons:
Would need some restrictions (% physical damage reduction of its total damage. Same principle as -20 elemental resistances) due to gameplay performance exploiting (i.e. more melee range: Such as double strike, dominating blow, dual strike, viper strike, etc).

**Open to debate:[/b]

Topic: No elemental damage reduction or restriction /Penalty.
Topic: Knockback gem, Multistrike gem, Melee Spalsh gem, melee physical damage gem, iron will gem,
Topic: Apply On-hit effects? - yes, probably.


-------------------

Gems restriction for Whips: Lesser multiple projectiles (cause its melee), Fork, Cyclone, flicker strike, Sweep, etc.

Note: Vaal Versions too.

-------------------

-Tricky Questions:

F.A.Q:
Would Whip builds benefit from projectile nodes? - No. Whips do not 'release' projectiles.
Would whip builds benefit from strength? - Yes.
Are Whips considered melee? - Yes.
Would Whips benefit from Iron Grip? - Yes. Passive Node and Gem.
Are whips considered Ranged? (tricky) - No. Its just that the '+ melee range' feature makes it look like it. It's Melee only actually.
Wouldn't that be considered a broken feature? (based on previous question) -
Would apply on hit effects? - Yes, i believe so.

-------------------

Discuss.
"
B34C0N wrote:
Reddit related topic

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/25wupc/i_wish_there_were_more_shields_like_the_spiked/

Spiked bundle + Whips usage:

Pros:
-Spiked Bundle would have a more interesting impact in the game (+10 melee range if using a Whip in your main hand).
-Brand new mixture of stats (for Spiked Bundle, making it provide a fresh gameplay experience).
-Window for maybe a Unique Spiked Bundle recipe. (orb of chance baby!)


Cons:
Would need some restrictions (% physical damage reduction of its total damage. Same principle as -20 elemental resistances) due to gameplay performance exploiting (i.e. more melee range: Such as double strike, dominating blow, dual strike, viper strike, etc).

**Open to debate:[/b]

Topic: No elemental damage reduction or restriction /Penalty.
Topic: Knockback gem, Multistrike gem, Melee Spalsh gem, melee physical damage gem, iron will gem,
Topic: Apply On-hit effects? - yes, probably.


-------------------

Gems restriction for Whips: Lesser multiple projectiles (cause its melee), Fork, Cyclone, flicker strike, Sweep, etc.

Note: Vaal Versions too.

-------------------

-Tricky Questions:

F.A.Q:
Would Whip builds benefit from projectile nodes? - No. Whips do not 'release' projectiles.
Would whip builds benefit from strength? - Yes.
Are Whips considered melee? - Yes.
Would Whips benefit from Iron Grip? - Yes. Passive Node and Gem.
Are whips considered Ranged? (tricky) - No. Its just that the '+ melee range' feature makes it look like it. It's Melee only actually.
Wouldn't that be considered a broken feature? (based on previous question) -
Would apply on hit effects? - Yes, i believe so.

-------------------

Discuss.


I don't get your obsession on spiked bundles.... but anyway with whip weapon there should be few new clusters for passive tree introduced and one could be for shields. But even through having better range for a whip is better, I don't get why shield should be giving you such a boost - maybe dual wielding a whip could have this effect. Benefits of "Whip + shield" would make more sense if it were just more block or higher evasion - the weapon you are using is ligher so you have more strengh for using shield.

Also, I would question how much str should affect it - when you are swinging large chunk of metal like a sword or axe, the more str you put, the heavier is the blow, but with whip putting more str doesn't make much difference. Thats why I see whips more like claws so one-handed melee weapon class requiring dexterity and intelligence. Maybe they should also be less affected by "more physical damange" bonus from str or have it converted to higher rate of attacks ?

And I don't think giving whip more range would be a "broken feature". There are already skills like reave which increase it or spectral throw where your melee weapon literaly becomes projectile. So yea, it's fine.
"
Alex_Lied wrote:
I don't get your obsession on spiked bundles....


Just having fun with that item.

"
Alex_Lied wrote:
but anyway with whip weapon there should be few new clusters for passive tree introduced and one could be for shields. But even through having better range for a whip is better, I don't get why shield should be giving you such a boost - maybe dual wielding a whip could have this effect.


Yes, but there's also a thing we did not considered.

Boosting the range of the item would make it more difficult and complex to balance (visually speaking). You see, when the animation of the 'blow' (click) trigger, the visuals in the 'enemy impact' may vary with the 'toon (character) animation'. So basically, and preferrably, there should not be a '+ melee boost' and just a standard one.

"
Alex_Lied wrote:
Benefits of "Whip + shield" would make more sense if it were just more block or higher evasion - the weapon you are using is ligher so you have more strengh for using shield.


Yeah, i know, but i also mentioned that the Spiked bundle could be changed, and therefore, the attributes, affixes, and base stats could help the Whip builds in a more 'fancy' way. But yeah, Shields right now provide the stats required for a theory-crafted Whip build.

"
Alex_Lied wrote:
Also, I would question how much str should affect it - when you are swinging large chunk of metal like a sword or axe, the more str you put, the heavier is the blow, but with whip putting more str doesn't make much difference. Thats why I see whips more like claws so one-handed melee weapon class requiring dexterity and intelligence. Maybe they should also be less affected by "more physical damange" bonus from str or have it converted to higher rate of attacks?


Since we are theory-crafting the Whip fundamentals, we can basically suit it the direction we foreseen it. So your way is as good as my way, in OUR minds, that is. Also, this is a game so, don't take it too strictly-whipply.

But, lets go your way:

-Open to debate-

Dex, int - care to explain your whys? your gem whys too? and passive build wise too if possible?

The good thing i see in your version is Whippin' your own minions. like: "Whap-pha! (summon) Go my underlings, and tear the world! (order)" and thats it.. but it would need the same animation for casting wich is... well.. you know..

But ill give you my 'whys' heads up whys - My way:

-Open to debate-

Str, Dex - more synergy with melee than ranged (my thoughts at that moment: Toon/Whip do not 'release' projectiles. Therefore, not ranged suitable). Green need Dex and just a portion of them would synergyze with the Whip dream (Puncture, Cyclone, double strike, dual strike, riposte, reave, spectral throw) So basically i thought Red (str) ones would be also the 'way to go' (both, support gems and main skill gems). Also, if you think about it, whips should NOT have % spell damage as their base property but critical chance, cause they lash you and the lash may vary. And also a synergy with iron grip, giving more damage to the phys damage on the phys damage (lal).

Other gems: Faster attacks / life leech etc.

Misc Reasons: Attack speed nodes / see the fast whip animation (lal) / physical damage rulz / Brusier-type build / knock backs.

Passive build whys:

Armor, health, Physical damage, and we want to SEE the animation, and maybe puncture blood here and there.

"
Alex_Lied wrote:
And I don't think giving whip more range would be a "broken feature". There are already skills like reave which increase it or spectral throw where your melee weapon literaly becomes projectile. So yea, it's fine.


I think Cyclone measures your melee range. Could be wrong tho. But thats the first idea that came to my mind. Yeah, just imagine that. Yeah, cool.. and broken..fun, but utterly broken.

"
B34C0N wrote:

"
Alex_Lied wrote:
Also, I would question how much str should affect it - when you are swinging large chunk of metal like a sword or axe, the more str you put, the heavier is the blow, but with whip putting more str doesn't make much difference. Thats why I see whips more like claws so one-handed melee weapon class requiring dexterity and intelligence. Maybe they should also be less affected by "more physical damange" bonus from str or have it converted to higher rate of attacks?


Since we are theory-crafting the Whip fundamentals, we can basically suit it the direction we foreseen it. So your way is as good as my way, in OUR minds, that is. Also, this is a game so, don't take it too strictly-whipply.

But, lets go your way:

-Open to debate-

Dex, int - care to explain your whys? your gem whys too? and passive build wise too if possible?

The good thing i see in your version is Whippin' your own minions. like: "Whap-pha! (summon) Go my underlings, and tear the world! (order)" and thats it.. but it would need the same animation for casting wich is... well.. you know..

But ill give you my 'whys' heads up whys - My way:

-Open to debate-

Str, Dex - more synergy with melee than ranged (my thoughts at that moment: Toon/Whip do not 'release' projectiles. Therefore, not ranged suitable). Green need Dex and just a portion of them would synergyze with the Whip dream (Puncture, Cyclone, double strike, dual strike, riposte, reave, spectral throw) So basically i thought Red (str) ones would be also the 'way to go' (both, support gems and main skill gems). Also, if you think about it, whips should NOT have % spell damage as their base property but critical chance, cause they lash you and the lash may vary. And also a synergy with iron grip, giving more damage to the phys damage on the phys damage (lal).

Other gems: Faster attacks / life leech etc.

Misc Reasons: Attack speed nodes / see the fast whip animation (lal) / physical damage rulz / Brusier-type build / knock backs.

Passive build whys:

Armor, health, Physical damage, and we want to SEE the animation, and maybe puncture blood here and there.



When I was talking about making it a dex/int based weapon I was thinking about its skill localization on the tree, fact that they are both low damange weapons with high speed and things like that. Claws are also dex/int based weapons and it doesn't mean they are meant to be used for summoning witches. Check it, they are really nicely connected both with int and dex while still being melee weapon with str benefits:

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Claw


I am using claws as a reference here 'coz it's a bit easier to see how much weapon would be balanced and what could wrong with its designing when we are just compering it to existing weapon type. And claws are the most suitable one here, especially their location on passive skill tree. As whips mechanic is more about dealing high-speed damage and slowing/knocking down enemies, they are more suitable for evasive way of play so they should be located in similar place

"
B34C0N wrote:
"
Alex_Lied wrote:
And I don't think giving whip more range would be a "broken feature". There are already skills like reave which increase it or spectral throw where your melee weapon literaly becomes projectile. So yea, it's fine.


I think Cyclone measures your melee range. Could be wrong tho. But thats the first idea that came to my mind. Yeah, just imagine that. Yeah, cool.. and broken..fun, but utterly broken.



Cyclone is measuring your melee range but to be honest I never considered it as a viable option for this whip - all other weapons are made to be sturdy, solid material of concrete shape so while spinning around with weapon stretched in arm it makes sense to hit everything around you. With whip made to be flexible and to actually hit something you need two swings - one toward enemy and one in oposite direction. Spinning it around would just made the character entagled in it. Maybe for same reason it would be better to restrict this skill or change it's range with spectral throw - it could make it more balanced but this needs some more thinking.

Also with the whip we should probably think about both about it's range and the range of attack which is created. With rest of the weapons we just have one point of attack which can be enhanced with gems like Molten strike, melee splash or reave. But with their small initial range, we almost can consider the character to be the center of the ongoing skill attack. With whip we would get one range for starting attack with skill and another one which would indicate range of dealt damage. For whip alone it would just be one point(=one enemy) but after using it with some skill it would change stricktly melee attacks with enhanced range to small aoe which can be used in certain range. If we add that ship is supposed to have small base damage like the claws, this would not be inbalanced at all but allow for many more complexity to the games mechanics :D
"
Alex_Lied wrote:
Cyclone is measuring your melee range but to be honest I never considered it as a viable option for this whip - all other weapons are made to be sturdy, solid material of concrete shape so while spinning around with weapon stretched in arm it makes sense to hit everything around you. With whip made to be flexible and to actually hit something you need two swings - one toward enemy and one in oposite direction. Spinning it around would just made the character entagled in it. Maybe for same reason it would be better to restrict this skill or change it's range with spectral throw - it could make it more balanced but this needs some more thinking.


That's why i previously posted that (cyclone restriction), i was already thinking ahead a little bit.

"
Alex_Lied wrote:
Also with the whip we should probably think about both about it's range and the range of attack which is created. 3) With rest of the weapons we just have one point of attack which can be enhanced with gems like Molten strike, melee splash or reave. But with their small initial range, we almost can consider the character to be the center of the ongoing skill attack. With whip we would get one range for starting attack with skill and another one which would indicate range of dealt damage. 1) For whip alone it would just be one point(=one enemy) 2) but after using it with some skill it would change stricktly melee attacks with enhanced range to small aoe which can be used in certain range. If we add that ship is supposed to have small base damage like the claws, this would not be inbalanced at all but allow for many more complexity to the games mechanics :D


1) Whip would enable a easier way to melee, however, we gotta suggest ways to balance that, cause since it is a fundamental gameplay performance balance aspect, that would need attention sooner or later.

2) Complexity was not the goal, but adding a new gameplay experience, new mechanic related point-click trigger happy experiences, and

3) maybe open a window for a new melee meta type:

"
Alex_Lied wrote:
With rest of the weapons we just have one point of attack which can be enhanced with gems like Molten strike, melee splash or reave. But with their small initial range, we almost can consider the character to be the center of the ongoing skill attack. With whip we would get one range for starting attack with skill and another one which would indicate range of dealt damage.

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