Is the map system humane design?

Sure it is until you start pushing 90 and beyond. But you were never supposed to level that high anyway so pain kicks in as intended.
Git R Dun!
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Aim_Deep wrote:
Sure it is until you start pushing 90 and beyond. But you were never supposed to level that high anyway so pain kicks in as intended.
I feel one of the huge problems here is a lack of clear boundaries. For the record, I'm fully of the belief that level 100 should be an epic achievement, and therefore should be very difficult to reflect this. However, where exactly does this pain really start "kicking in"? At 90? At 88? At 92? It's clear it happens before 100, but at what level do we go from normal progression to brutal challenge? Where should it kick in?

The experience curve is far too flat right now. The pain you speak of sneaks up on you, one insidious but at a time, encouraging you to accept it as normal.

Where GGG draws the line is up to them, but if I was handling things, getting to level 90 would be significantly easier than it is now. However, getting from 90 to 91 would be a huge contrast. There would be a huge spike in terms of leveling difficulty, one which sends a clear message to players: you were playing the normal game before, but now things are going to get almost perversely difficult. It would send an obvious message, clearly marking the exact place where the game stops being humane and expects you to either reroll or put up with it.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Apr 17, 2015, 8:19:34 AM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
However, where exactly does this pain really start "kicking in"? At 90? At 88? At 92? It's clear it happens before 100, but at what level do we go from normal progression to brutal challenge? Where should it kick in?


When your map pool gets rekt.

XP & levels depend on maps, so what are you actually asking is: at what random point the player gets fucked by the RNG mapping system and his XP progression gets bumpy or halts?

The answer is: Depends on your luck. That's why some will say 80, some 85, some 90...

Ideally, if you want to se your XP bar move in real time, you'll be already doing 78s even before hitting 90.
When night falls
She cloaks the world
In impenetrable darkness
Last edited by morbo on Apr 17, 2015, 8:33:36 AM
Some people actively seek what is called bad-game design in the video.

It's an interesting topic, but equally flawed by the differentiation of desires between two different people.

And this has always been a flaw made by GGG. They attract as many different segments of the gaming population as possible (who can blame them, honestly?) while in reality, they are not providing a game for all of them.

And they rely on the player himself to recognize if the game is not for him and stop participating in it as to end his "bad game experience". Clearly overestimating the capacity of emotional intellect in there
player-base.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : for example i have made numerous threads requesting GGG to clarify what they consider there definition of "hardcore" and put this in there "this game" segment for clarification to people who seek out PoE.

Obviously, the obscurity works in there favor here in terms of market power and wealth gain.

But from an ethical view point its a bad thing to do and more so if your actively aware of the negative impact.
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
Last edited by Boem on Apr 17, 2015, 10:35:47 AM
Just to make sure I understood the video correctly: Making a game addictive is fine as long as the addictiveness comes from pure gameplay fun and not from mechanics that lengthen the game artificially?
GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.
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Xavderion wrote:
Just to make sure I understood the video correctly: Making a game addictive is fine as long as the addictiveness comes from pure gameplay fun and not from mechanics that lengthen the game artificially?

I wouldn't phrase the first part like that, but you have the basic idea. It's awesome to create a game that you (and others) want to play because it's simply fun or because it poses a unique challenge. It's not humane design to hide much of the fun or challenge behind mindless repetition.
Dreamfeather Elemental Cleave Ranger: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1087616
Last edited by Tempada on Apr 17, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
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morbo wrote:
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
However, where exactly does this pain really start "kicking in"? At 90? At 88? At 92? It's clear it happens before 100, but at what level do we go from normal progression to brutal challenge? Where should it kick in?


When your map pool gets rekt.

XP & levels depend on maps, so what are you actually asking is: at what random point the player gets fucked by the RNG mapping system and his XP progression gets bumpy or halts?

The answer is: Depends on your luck. That's why some will say 80, some 85, some 90...

.


And your ability to play multiplayer rather than solo.
A "hardcore" game design philosophy should be about challenges per hour, not about hours being the challenge.

Also: if you are measuring reward in loot or XP, that isn't the player's reward, it's the character's reward. The difference is important. The players reward should be the activity itself. If you are slogging through the game without interest, to attain loot to help you continue soothing through an uninteresting game, you're not being rewarded at all - you're just trapped in a Skinner box.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Apr 17, 2015, 12:48:37 PM
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A "hardcore" game design philosophy should be about challenges per hour, not about hours being the challenge.

Also: if you are measuring reward in loot or XP, that isn't the player's reward, it's the character's reward. The difference is important. The players reward should be the activity itself. If you are slogging through the game without interest, to attain loot to help you continue soothing through an uninteresting game, you're not being rewarded at all - you're just trapped in a Skinner box.


In my experience, games that are just a continuous adrenaline rush are fine for a while but eventually wear you down. The reason I am able to tolerate playing PoE so much is that most of the gameplay is pretty low key. I don't get riled up much by it. It's relaxing and I can think while I play, it's a hobby rather than a sport.

The reason I actually play as much as I do(rather than some other game) is that relaxed gameplay is paired with an amazing theorycrafting experience so even though any given moment of PoE is not particularly rewarding, I can be proud of what my intellectual efforts and time investment have accomplished.

When I reach the point where I feel my character is either complete or a failure, I reroll. If the way you're playing PoE is turning it into an unenjoyable, grindy as fuck skinner box, I think the problem is with the way you're playing rather than the game itself.

As an aside, the discussion in this topic is absolutely all over the place. If you'd actually written out a point people could respond to instead of writing a clickbait topic title and linking some random video, the thread quality would be way higher.
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If you'd actually written out a point people could respond to instead of writing a clickbait topic title and linking some random video, the thread quality would be way higher.

Well the video's not random at all (it's about "humane design"), but it would have been nice to summarize its key point in the op, which is why I gave quotes on the front page.
Dreamfeather Elemental Cleave Ranger: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1087616

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