Flameblast

Hello, it seems as if the people at GGG seem to not have a firm idea on what they want to do to tweak Flameblast. My recommendation is to drastically alter the cast time on it, but provide a scaling curve of 'more' cast speed per stack. Imagine something like "100% more damage and 6% more cast speed per charge" This way overall damage per second might potentially be increased at higher stack amounts (which i feel is alright) but it would give a lower return or even lose the appeal of single/double stacking before going to the next pack. A shift in meta. An increase in overall potential, while also providing a method to bring the fundamental point of the skill, the stacking mechanic, a chance to out shine more than just a gimmick leveling tool.

Mechanically, I would love to see it really reward full-channels more than it does now.

Cut the damage by 20% (again), then increase the charge bonus from 1.1x per charge level to something like 1.4x per charge level.

Currently, it does 1 base damage and stacks 10*110%, resulting in 12 base damage after a full channel. In essence, a "full channel" is rewarded by 20% more damage over casting more, smaller channels.

After the above, it does .8 base damage and stacks 10*140%, resulting in 12 base damage after a full channel. In essence, a "full channel" is rewarded by 50% more damage over casting more, smaller channels.

(Or, said another way, "short channels" are penalized more.)

It's okay for the skill to do a fuckton of damage, but it needs to be balanced by rooting the player. The best way to root the player is to force them to full-channel more often via rewards.

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pneuma wrote:

Mechanically, I would love to see it really reward full-channels more than it does now.

Cut the damage by 20% (again), then increase the charge bonus from 1.1x per charge level to something like 1.4x per charge level.

Currently, it does 1 base damage and stacks 10*110%, resulting in 12 base damage after a full channel. In essence, a "full channel" is rewarded by 20% more damage over casting more, smaller channels.

After the above, it does .8 base damage and stacks 10*140%, resulting in 12 base damage after a full channel. In essence, a "full channel" is rewarded by 50% more damage over casting more, smaller channels.

(Or, said another way, "short channels" are penalized more.)

It's okay for the skill to do a fuckton of damage, but it needs to be balanced by rooting the player. The best way to root the player is to force them to full-channel more often via rewards.

I always thought that is how flameblast should have worked in the first place, but I don't think I agree with nerfing it 20% more again. GGG didn't want this skill to always be the best for leveling\racing\ect they could have kept the level 20 gem the same or almost and reduced it at lower levels.

Considering Chris's comments regarding flameblast in the patch party being something along the lines of it not needing changed to 1/2 thru these leagues changing it. I think it would be fair to say I think this skill needs time to see how much the change truly affected it. Asking for further nerfs without a way to get valid feedback is asinine.

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goetzjam wrote:

I always thought that is how flameblast should have worked in the first place, but I don't think I agree with nerfing it 20% more again.

At full channel, the damage is unchanged in my suggestion.
It's a reshape of the curve, not a strict lowering or raising.
If you wanted, reduce it to .9 instead of .8, so that the low-channel is lower damage than now but the full-channel is higher damage than now.

Neither a buff nor a nerf in total.

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goetzjam wrote:

I think it would be fair to say I think this skill needs time to see how much the change truly affected it. Asking for further nerfs without a way to get valid feedback is asinine.

Pretty sure OP (or at least, I was) only making "next patch" suggestions.
This poor league has had enough big changes already.

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pneuma wrote:

Mechanically, I would love to see it really reward full-channels more than it does now.

Cut the damage by 20% (again), then increase the charge bonus from 1.1x per charge level to something like 1.4x per charge level.

Woah. I thought your mantra was meaningful choice. I don't see much choice there - you'll want to charge up until you one-shot, end of story.

Are you trying to nerf "dabbing" completely into the ground? If so, why? I'd feel a very compelling reason would be required.

I feel Prolif, not Flameblast, is the main problem with dabbing currently. The support turns a dabbing's low AoE into a non-issue by adding a bunch of effective AoE. You need to consider both with and without Prolif support when balancing, rather than assuming a currently OP combo is maintained.

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pneuma wrote:

Currently, it does 1 base damage and stacks 10*110%, resulting in 12 base damage after a full channel. In essence, a "full channel" is rewarded by 20% more damage over casting more, smaller channels.

This ignores burning damage.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

Mechanically, I would love to see it really reward full-channels more than it does now.

Cut the damage by 20% (again), then increase the charge bonus from 1.1x per charge level to something like 1.4x per charge level.

Woah. I thought your mantra was meaningful choice. I don't see much choice there - you'll want to charge up until you one-shot, end of story.

It's risk/reward.

Standing in place is risky.
Rewarding full-channels is the payoff.

You can run around and use lower-channel flameblasts, and it's much safer to do (ranged, fast, kiting, etc.), or you can channel up and go for the one shot (and hope you don't get goatmen leapslamming your face, or an elereflect run on screen).

The current system makes dabbing/small-channel way better than full-channel in virtually all cases. There's the real lack of meaningful choice.

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Playing with the AoE (with and without prolif) is similarly worthwhile to look into.

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EDIT: Sa_Re, it doesn't ignore burning damage, I was only talking about base damage. I wasn't aware that I had to fully explain all possible mechanics that spawn from base damage...

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pneuma wrote:

The current system makes dabbing/small-channel way better than full-channel in virtually all cases. There's the real lack of meaningful choice.

I disagree on this. With non-crit FB, place a totem near mobs, channel FB and watch everything prolif burn to death while you can safety move around.

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pneuma wrote:

EDIT: Sa_Re, it doesn't ignore burning damage, I was only talking about base damage. I wasn't aware that I had to fully explain all possible mechanics that spawn from base damage...

I'd base my analysis on the way most people use the skill in maps, which is prolif burn. Also you can't really compare the dps of stacks vs no stacks as if there was no time between casts. You need to perform an action inbetween casts, even when standing still.

Here's what I'd do:

1. Stacks now deal (base) 100% more damage per stack. This is a reduction and is pro-dab. However...

2. Quality bonus now increases stack damage on a 1%:1% ratio. 20q would mean 120% more damage per stack; so you'd expect at least 110% per stack for endgame play. With Enhance tricks you could get about 152-163% more damage per stack, but that would eat up a support.

Note that this would replace 1.5% ignite chance per quality, forcing heavier dedication to Ignite chance if going Prolif. Chance to Ignite would be more heavily used than it is now.

3. Base radius to 5, +3 per stack. This would require sniper-like aim to hit on zero stacks and decent aim on Echo dab (8 radius is same as Fireball explosion - not very big, even stacking increased AoE).

4. Another damage nerf, but just 10% this time.

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Sa_Re wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

The current system makes dabbing/small-channel way better than full-channel in virtually all cases. There's the real lack of meaningful choice.

I disagree on this. With non-crit FB, place a totem near mobs, channel FB and watch everything prolif burn to death while you can safety move around.

Still leaves lot of room for the big "full-channel killer", reflect, to enter the equation.

Overall, would you rather see Flameblast not punish/reward channel duration at all? That's the only lever I'm suggesting that GGG pull. They currently reward full-channels on the order of 20% more damage over casting as many dabs. As a "future want", I would like to see that be even more pronounced, and you seem to be disagreeing but I'm not sure.

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Sa_Re wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

EDIT: Sa_Re, it doesn't ignore burning damage, I was only talking about base damage. I wasn't aware that I had to fully explain all possible mechanics that spawn from base damage...

I'd base my analysis on the way most people use the skill in maps, which is prolif burn. Also you can't really compare the dps of stacks vs no stacks as if there was no time between casts. You need to perform an action inbetween casts, even when standing still.

Right, and I'm talking about the skill by itself. Presumably the time between casts is a bonus since that's time the player is not rooted. There is a very small actual loss in multi-casting, mostly due to player input not being frame perfect.

GGG is going to do what GGG is going to do (or not do) about prolif, and it's going to be a global change, and they haven't said anything about it.

I'm not a huge fan of going to every skill and modifying it instead of a global change that spans all skills, and at the very least, I'm not going to suggest they take that preventative action before the global change. It's better to do the global change, then measure, then cut again (at least in terms of saving balance-team headaches, and can be done on alpha anyway so it hopefully won't affect the public realm too heavily).

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Scrotie, yeah, I see that angle. Reward channel not with damage but with AoE (as it kinda already is, but way more pronounced by having a teeny tiny dab and a decent sized full-channel).

Also wow, that quality bonus though. That'd almost be the strongest quality bonus in the game (still behind Firestorm, but only barely).