anti melee mechanics you need to change imo
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First off a note for players reading this:
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This is a post from me to ggg about a few things that are too unfair for melee in my opinion. Overall I think melee is fine, all you serial complainers who go on about melee being underpowered with a huge list of complaints, 98% chance I dont agree with you and dont want your comments in this thread. I cant stop you from posting them but it is not the purpose of this thread for inexperienced or bad players who play bad builds to just cry OMG MELEE OMG, I dont agree with you and will argue against what you are saying. Id rather this thread was just a comment from me to the devs, you ruin the rest of the forum with your endless melee complaining pls leave this one thread free of that stuff. I dont want to disagree with anyone, certainly dont want to argue with anyone, I love you all but please, none of the nonsense in this thread, go make another one of your own OMG OMG threads somewhere I can ignore it hey guys and girls @ GGG. So theres a lot of complaining about melee, I dont agree with the vast majority of it, as a player with many 1000s of hours experience, having played dozens of high level melee builds with everything from terrible gear to mirrored gear levels I feel like Im better placed to talk about 'melee' in general than most people, and mostly its fine tbh, lots of hot air, bad builds, players who dont realise they have to play the game, kite, position, not just hold down a button and facetank the world. However, Chris mentioned changes coming with act4, and there are a couple of things in this game that are needlessly unfair for melee that I would personally change, because theyre not right at all. Volatile Blood
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In its normal form its ok, harsh for melee but its ok that maybe some things are more harsh for melee. But... most things are slighly more harsh for melee without actually adding specific ones. In a -max map, in a map with hyped damage mods or against hyped damage auras this can be completely lethal. How does a melee char deal with vol blood in a map where vol blood will 1 shot them? They cant unless they used a ranged skill, personally I have never died to this affix but theres been times where Ive had a 5k life reduced to under 1k life by doing the only thing I could possibly do which was kill the thing with a melee attack... thats not right.
imo you need to change this mod to drop an area shape damage on the floor the same way some of the bloodlines mobs do that has a timer so you kill it, then you have a window to escape the area damage before it goes off. Its just a needless punishment to melee in its current form. bloodlines Sprinklers
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These mobs that you kill, they drop a totem that have swirling aoe lightning damage 'wings' that cna instantly kill a char... again for melee what is this? Oh heres a mob and if you kill it the only way you can kill it being purely melee you can die instantly... seriously? Now like VB, this is something obviously the majority of melee chars face and survive because the damage isnt quite high enough to kill them. But what happens on a gmp map with -max? Do you want all melee chars to feel they cant play those maps because of the possibility of this mob type spawning? Ive seen many many streams where melee chars with 5k to 6k life were left with under 1k health after escaping these totems as fast as they possibly could. Its not bad that the game is hard, but why add these things that punish melee in particular when virtually everything is already slightly more dangerous for melee?
Palace Dominus
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Why only Palace? Because Palace is the only place where you have the damage so high that it can 1 shot you. the slam 1 shots, the lightning beam instaburts chars with 75% res, the exploding mobs can 1 shot a 5.5k life char with 75% fire res... the majority of stuff in phase one of the fight virtually 1 shots well defended chars. Phase 2 is meant to be melee friendly right? the easy phase where nothing 1 shots you... Now with 0 desync its fine, you can play the fight, but the desync in that fight is constant, I feel like 80% of the time dominus and all his minions are out of sync and it makes it unacceptable.
Vaal in maze would have been on this list, but after anuhart showed you vids of how bullshit the desync deaths in that fight are you specifically changed it. How did you not know those sort of deaths occured? Why did it take Anuhart showing you that for you to know how your own game plays out? Because hes probably spent as much time playing the game in the last 2 years as you guys have making it... so have I. If you could see some of the deaths ive had in palace on melee chars theyre every bit as bs and unacceptable in the game. Im standing in a 3 inch square spot on my screen that is the only safe spot I can stand in when he beams his lightning... and then my char just instantly dies from 5.5k life to nothing in the space of a second because it turns out dominus is literally 2 inches out of sync on my screen which means the spot im standing in is not the only safe spot, the spot where his positioning on my screen is telling me is the safe spot. Because Im melee I cant trust going near the explody mobs at the top of the map because theyre always out of sync and I have to be in 1 shot range of them to kill them, a ranged char can just blow those guys away from a safe distance and kite into that zone. When you have a level 92 char you are maybe 1/3 of your way to lvl100 and the only 2 maps that give you decent xp are Palace and Courtyard... so this map is 50% of the game content for the last 2/3 of your chars progression... and its virtually unplayable for a melee who never wants to die unless you are legacy kaoms with 10k life or you are ci with 10k es. Sure my ci melee witch has beat double palace dominus maps with hard mods and no probs, because when one of his explody minions is out of sync BANG, from nowhere unavoidable 6k+ damage in one hit, I survive because I have 10k es... Your game has to be playable all the way from 1 to 100 on a melee char who has 75% all res and 5k life, it has to be, because thats most well built melee chars. If you want to change the tree and give everyone 10k life endgame then ok we can deal with the desync in this fight same way we do in normal and cruel, by occasionally being hit while desynced, losing the vast majority of our hp pool, panic, run away, pot, tp out maybe, heave a heart attack, but you are ALIVE, not 1 shot out of the blue. Desync will always kill players regardless of their skill in very rare occasions, in my experience I have never died to desync outside of this particular boss fight on a melee char in over a year, I have died multiple times to desync in this fight and this fight alone. Its not ok that 9 out of 10 times this doesnt happen and the fight plays out fine, the rest of the game is like 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 you are fine if you are well built and play the game with skill. You have to do what you did to maze vaal and make sure every single attack that can 1 shot a well built and geared char cannot happen without strict sync. Its my favourite map boss fight. The beyond bosses are now better fights imo, great design on those fights, but this fight is too much fun and is in too important a map for it to be something I feel like I cant attempt on decent melee chars because I know if I keep doing it I will die and theres nothing I can do to stop that but skip it. ... and thats literally it, thats the only things in the forefront of my mind that imo are 'badly' designed in a way thats kind of unacceptable from a melee point of view. Melee will always require more skill, will always require a better built char, you cant change that and you dont need to change that, there will always be some styles of play that require more skill than others, tendrils requires more skill than arc, its fine. These 3 things bypass your skill in bs ways for a melee char and can mean death even if you are well built and well geared, these are not fine, imo. This thread has been automatically archived. Replies are disabled.
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What you are suggesting is to not kill melee players with the few things that are meant to kill them. I miss thew good old days where players improved their builds to counter melee killers instead of asking for nerfs to everything that could kill them.
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you cant improve a melee build to not get killed by these, thats the point, unless you count improving a melee build by making it a ranged a build or rolling over hard maps with chaos orbs.
Maybe you can link up your tree and gear of one of your melee chars in the 90s so I can get some tips on what an improved melee char looks like? What I should be aiming for? Can also explain to me the things in the game that are 'meant' to kill ranged attackers and casters? The instakill mechanics in maps those chars face that means they have to have a melee attack equipped? Last edited by Snorkle_uk on Mar 2, 2015, 8:41:58 AM
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" I lost you at the end there. And you can improve your gameplay, if not your build. Volatile blood? Dont get too close, even melee chars can run away. Use some melee aoe, dot or other skill to kill those mobs and leap away or something. Adapt to the game, not the game to you when it comes to melee in regards to these things you want nerfed. |
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" You're suggesting he should adapt by making his Melee char use a non-Melee skill to kill the "only things meant to kill Melee". So tell us what enemies are "meant to kill Ranged". Tell us what enemies force Ranged to use a Melee skill to kill them. And no, the ones with the bubble don't force you to melee. The bubble is big enough to still kite them inside it. " No you can't. If you have to not play your build at all to beat an enemy then you might as well change to a ranged character. It's a melee char and should be able to kill everything in melee. Snorkle's idea of leaving a pool that detonates after a few seconds seems quite interesting and still dangerous. Forum Warrior - Why are you creating a thread about this subject? Use Search! Also Forum Warrior - Nice necro. Last edited by Nurvus on Mar 2, 2015, 11:18:54 AM
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" you lost me at the end? Because basically theres no answer, there is no mechanic that will instantly kill your character if you kill it outside of melee range. You understand what I am saying, youre not stupid, you just dont have an answer that doesnt prove its unbalanced in terms of mechanics being added to equally challenge different play styles. You cant jump or run away with a toe to toe melee skill unless there is a timer added to give you a window to allow you to do that, which is exactly what my suggestion was, to add one. Youre not talking to a noob, Im willing to bet my melee chars can deal with a lot more than yours, are more adapted to taking on extreme endgame, prove me wrong if you feel thats not the case. Bottom line is that every single thing in the game is as challenging or probably way more challenging for a toe to toe melee than any other play style, so taking the most challenging style to play and adding mechanics on top to instantly kill them for using their skills the only way they cna use their skills when you dont add anything even remotely as dangerous for any other play style is bullshit and is giving actual substance to all this "omg melee sucks" bullshit on the forums. Toe to toe melee skills shouldnt be singled out as bad choices because theyre the only skills where you can instantly die using them and need alternate skills to get around mehcnaics, no other skills have that, you dont need to add it exclusively to the most inherently challenging play style. I want this game to be made harder, I want us to be forced to play -max monster damage extreme content to progress later in the game, and if that is implemented basically toe to toe melee will be off the cards for playing unless these things are changed. the game is too easy, this isnt about the game being too hard, this is about balanced level of challenge for different build types, if theyre not going to add something that will 1 shot any char who kills it outside of melee range then these mechanics are bullshit, hurt build diversity and add substance to the "omg melee sucks" bullshit we have to deal with constantly in the community. Theres too many noobs crying about melee because theyre just bad, but while mechanics like this exist they have a point. We dont need thigns added to specifically make melee harder, we need things to make everything harder that do not discriminate but whatever they add will always be more challenging for melee regardless. |
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" exactly, if the answer to toe to toe melee is always "well you have to be ranged too" then its always going to be the case of "well why dont I JUST do the ranged thing and fuck the toe to toe part of the build?". Its not about easy or hard, its about balanced challenge that promotes build diversity. |
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Basically ondurs guile needs to be removed so ranged are actually threatened by the mobs that are meant to threaten them. Either that or change about 50% of all projectile attacks to spells so they can't just lololololevade them..
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I'm just hoping that act 4 brings some major rebalancing to either damage output or melee survivability - cause the whole diminishing returns BS that litters the strength side of the tree is very...VERY aggravating.
"If you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is." ~David Dunning Last edited by TikoXi on Mar 2, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
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ondars is more useful for melee than ranged tho, removing ondars would make the balance of melee vs ranged even more weighted to ranged because range can manually evade through kiting more than melee can. Ondars is one of the few things making melee perfectly fine, if they harm it they will harm melee big time. The answer is to make monsters that will get you toe to toe regardless to remove ranged advantage.
Melee has far better mechanical survivability than ranged due to the defenses in their parts of the tree, and they generally outdamage ranged too. If your melees dont have better survival nhumbers and damage than your casters etc then you are building chars badly. See this is the thing, I dont buy into that at all, melee is fine, its just a tiny handful of mechanics like sprinkler deathdongers that need changed imo. Last edited by Snorkle_uk on Mar 2, 2015, 11:53:32 AM
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Solid read
+1, most things you cover are accurate and can be compared with the old "void bearers" prior to the far range modifier. for some of you who don't remember this, void bearers used to do 300% damage to melee with LMP instead of the 150% they currently do. Similarly, "blood" mobs (there are more forms then volatile blood btw) could have a bigger AOE but deal "less" damage more to the center. In that way a ranged get's punished if he does not kite actively enough and a melee gains a survival bonus just for being melee to them. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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