Okay, I don't think the stat tree is good design
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As much as I love to memorize and re-memorize the thing every big patch, I think it does harm for no real gain:
Complexity for complexity's sake I can imagine how much cringing goes on in the soul of the poor fellow when he has to re-adjust the guiderails on the thing. At the end of the day it's Diablo 2's stat system, but with more stats and diminishing returns on pumping one stat. A very similar system could be implemented with the stats consolidated instead of strung out. A stat menu with a flow like Diablo 2's skill trees would vastly simplify its presentation. For example, Butchery could require Born To Fight to be taken. Then, five stat points could be put into Butchery; with the fifth point invested you get the premium attack speed and damage. Exclusion of skill combinations for no particular reason Think back about dual and tri elemental sorceresses from Diablo 2's days. Is there really any increased utility getting Increased Cold% instead of Increased Lightning%? It's all ranged spell damage in the end. This also applies to other things as well - increased duration nodes are swell for Viper Strike. But are wasted points if you want to also use Cyclone, or any other melee AoE for that matter. This has a modest boost to contributing to the one attack skill metagame (though the socket system is overwhelmingly the primary reason, with monster health effectively getting lower and lower as damage support gems get added to power creep the game being #2.) Exclusion of stat combinations for no particular reason Cyclone example: The witch area is essentially empty of melee value. Elemental Dominion only working on spells excludes it being worthwhile for even elemental Rapier. So, 20% increased radius would cost 15 stat points to take. Perhaps worthwhile for 8-10 points, but not 15. The whole thing reminds me of Magic the Gathering. In the old days, they used to do this thing where they made it easier to play "allied colors", and harder to play "enemy colors". Eventually they discovered the game was just more fun when 10 combinations of two could be played instead of just 5, culminating in the era of endless money and ecstasy that was Ravnica. Path of Exile doesn't so much discourage combinations as much as it builds a hard wall against them. Getting Mind Over Matter on a witch is EIGHTEEN stat points. 18 levels. Cloak of Defiance wouldn't be so crazy, if that wasn't how much it cost. Currently there is one passive force multiplier on the tree: minions. You don't have to take stats to make auras/shouts/counter attacks/totems worth using, they're there if you want them at virtually full power. Stats into minions, though, increase their potency roughly by a factor of three. Not really worth using unless you spec into them. These... other passive multipliers could be designed the same way: a mild bonus if not specced into, but a massive one if they are. Thus real class-specific archetypes could be possible, such as: Witch: Undead, Curses Templar: Auras+Totems Shadow: Traps Ranger: Traps, Beast Minions (we can hope and imagine) Dervish: Counter Attacks Marauder: Shouts Scion: Speeches, Lectures (okay okay... Duration, Curses) Which could be combined for a bit more variety. One thing I'll point out here is how Ranger Trap Nodes on the current tree are functionally.. almost completely vestigial. They're not very powerful for their cost since the area they're in isn't that conductive to supporting trap damage. But at the end of the day the socket system is what constrains variety the most. Diablo 2, you could have two or three skills at full effectiveness. Here, you have one attack skill and up to 18 passive force multiplier skills and supports all at max level. And more or less as good as they can be, since the power differential between taking aura/curse nodes and not is like 1.45x. 70% of the benefit you'd have if you spec'ed into them. Last edited by LimitedRooster on Feb 16, 2015, 1:23:26 AM
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This is pretty true and where these two games become fundamentally different. Most of the time you'll have a character revolving around using one skill and a very limited set of other skills due to their effectiveness and being able to spec into them. With D2 you had a finite amount of options to choose from but i don't think it is as useless or crippling as you say. For instance, i make a Whirlwind barb. I will usually spec into my chosen weapon proficiency and save my points for maxing out Whirlwind. I wouldnt be spending points on another skill to use in conjunction with it because it takes away from what i am doing.
Overall i think there is a complete lack of synergy that POE is missing that diablo had with its characters. In D2 a lot of your characters skills fit really nicely with others in order to pull off great combos. In POE each skill is pretty much stand alone and that is pretty lacking. I would say however they are trying to improve this by folding nodes into each other like the nodes that give both lightning and cold damage together for diversity's sake. I think the game is definitely trying to add more synergy but its a slow process. | |
" There are certainly issues with the skill tree in its present state, but honestly they aren't these. The complexity thing isn't a problem, it is however, imo, under utilized by the developers. The current clusters, while logical, are imo often too general in that they either work for many of the natural build choices for the nearby character starts or they don't. Add to that, that many of the stats available on the tree aren't skillpoint efficient to invest in for most builds and you have a phenomenon of very predictable skilltree setups for most natural builds. This is killing the potential for variety that a massive tree like that could offer (more of a missed opportunity than bad design though). The lack of combos in the game really isn't the skilltree's fault at all, but rather the fault lies in the current skilgem selection. The Heralds offer a glimpse of one solution to this skillgem problem, while supports offer interesting ways to alter existing skills. There's little if any incentive to use multiple different skills in combination. The recent trigger gems are further examples. It's more skillgems like those that will likely address the skill combo issues (another thing that might help would be to rebalance mob health and damage so that the game wasn't as much of a 1-shot fest as it is, this would open the doors to lots of things that are currently pointless to even consider designing into the game. For example, a spell that requires the target to be under the effects of an elemental status effect to be cast but does different things based on what effects the target was under is pointless as the game currently stands, but if enemies took some actual effort to kill, than you it would suddenly be something worth designing/using). The witch having a lack of melee is actually evidence of some of what they've done right with designing the tree: She is the game's premier spellcaster. It's part of her identity that she isn't good at melee, but is a superb spellcaster. You know who make poor spellcasters? Marauder, Ranger, and especially Duelist. Character start locations are literally what give them their identity in the game. |
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In the end of the day, it is the giant passive skill web and the active skill gems that make POE so memorable to me. The whole point of the tree is making choices, trade offs. This is not D3 where you get all res(e.g.) on everything. There should not be an option to put more than one point into "-4% mana reservation". YOU CANNOT JUST HAVE EVERYTHING! I must emphasize this is not D3; this is not D2. D2 was pretty linear in terms damage effectiveness. Go try baal runs with a zeal/charge paladin or a weapon throw barb in ubers; barbs were just worthless inside ubers anyway.
"game wasn't as much of a 1-shot fest as it is" Who do you speak for here? the streamers and other elites. You certainly do not speak for the people who are not as hardcore as the streamers and the other people who can get huge damage for nothing. The people who play in between the casuals and the hardcore are who I speak for when I say this is not a simple one shot game. I have played a lot since 2012 (with breaks here and there) and my main is only 86 and my arc dps is only 12k, but I have worked hard for what I have (and I have a bunch of other characters). I look forward to every tree reset so I can plan in some special way, get what I want with what I have, make trades off, choices for pete's sake. I can stare at the tree for an hour planning what I want, hours fiddling with gear I have to get the trade off just right. D2 did not have that and especially not later D3. I like the way the tree is now. sure a few things could be moved some, but in the end the trade offs need to be there. Mind over matter being 18 points away, fine, if you want it, plan for it, make the trade offs. It's not D2 where you dump all the skill points into 1 or 2 skills and the rest into the synergies, where you dump near everything into vit. It's not D3 where you can have every stat you want. Just my 4cents on the matter...By agreeing to these terms of use, you acknowledge that bugs are like cool and stuff and that you will bow to the Mealworm king when he ascends the throne. Global 1 is cancer.
By agreeing to these terms of use, you acknowledge that bugs are like cool and stuff and that you will bow to the Mealworm king when he ascends the throne. |
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" The complexity provides us with endless possible character builds, so it doesn't just exist for the sake of complexity. " You want to go Lightning/Cold. If you take cold only passives, it only benefits cold and not lightning. You want to go Viper/Cyclone. If you take increased duration nodes, it only benefits Viper. If I understood your point correctly, this particular point is actually a positive aspect to the game. More choices and customization with trade-offs for all choices that you make. " MoM being on the other side of the Witch starting point is quite obviously for balance reasons. It's dead easy to pump up the amount of Mana starting as the Witch, and MoM would benefit greatly from this. - Not being able to "MAX" two or more skills in PoE is not a problem. There is nothing wrong with having 2 skills at 90% effectiveness alongside a little survivability, or having 2 skills at 70% effectiveness with more survivability. This is the whole point of the passive skill tree. - Even in D2, taking the Sorc as an example, you could never "MAX" two skills from two separate trees. Proper MAXING of fireball would require your inventory to be filled with Fire skillers (+ torch + annihilus charm + anything else that I have failed to remember), which would mean your Frozen Orb would not be maxed as a consequence. While I am at it, here's my feedback to GGG regarding the skill tree. It's fucking awesome. I love it. Linking gems is what got me started because it reminded me so much of the good old days of Final Fantasy VII, but I was completely hooked when I saw the passive skill tree for the first time. I look forward to every reset so that I can try new builds. So many ideas, so little time. The passive skill tree is truly revolutionary. Thank you. | |
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The main issue of any rpg game is simply raw dps. If the gameplay doesnt offer reason to use/rely on Skills/Mechaniks, their is no reason to specc into it and sacrevice dps.
Why would i care about CC traps (Beartrap) as a Bow/ranger, even if the mechanik is related to the class if Mobs just die instant, and their arent enough gab closer Mobs anyways. Why would i prever damage over time (also totem,minions) skills in build X. If Mobs would freeze/stun/etc. more frequently, it would be more consistent in this scenerio. Last week D3 patch come out with new items, SKill X does 3000% more damage, ... how exciting The skill tree needs less obvious choices and more complex notes, not like Life/Melee dmg or ES/spelldmg. Even if they only spread Cookies amoung secondary notes it would be enough, like +10% Totem/minion dmg 6% life. |
