Ondar's Guile keystone: need some help with math

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vargorn wrote:

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Most of them have around 2500 accuracy so the actual chance to evade reflect is still only around ~60% but there is a huge difference in getting hit by 2/3 or just 1/3 projectiles from reflect.

Who are "them"? Reflecting mobs? If so - wiki says about reflect that PC's own accuracy is used when applying reflect damage - not mobs'...

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Fins_FinsT wrote:

Who are "them"? Reflecting mobs? If so - wiki says about reflect that PC's own accuracy is used when applying reflect damage - not mobs'...

I was referring to my chars; mobs have rather low accuracy indeed with the exception of some bosses and exiles.

I am pretty sure that reflect cannot apply curse on hit since it is simply 'damage' without any further effects.

Reflected damage is pure damage. Nothing else. It doesn't crit; it doesn't shock; it doesn't freeze; it doesn't ignite. All it does is remove life or ES. It remains the type of damage you dealt, so if you dealt fire damage, you can mitigate it with fire resist. If you dealt physical damage, you can mitigate it with things like armour (not good for high damage) and Immortal Call. If it's a spell, the reflected damage is spell damage. If it's a projectile, the reflected damage is projectile damage.

It's a bit of a reach to look at only Ondar's Guile to mitigate your reflected projectile attack damage. You're going to have other things like Life Gain on Hit, Life Leech, and Life Regen. And flasks. What you want to aim for is enough mitigation so you don't one shot yourself. If you live through the first hits, you change to a secondary attack you have in your build to deal with reflect.

you wont reflect your own curses, vargorn is right.


20k requires some mid range gear, nothing too fancy tbh Im sure you can hit 20k evasion with under an exalts worth of gear. Much easier with a shield build but thats he price you pay for ranged safety to some extent going bows.


nodes like "finesse" are not worth passing up to avoid accuracy, its such a good node and so well situated that youd just get it anyway, touch of accuracy will help more than hurt in practice. Clusters like Depth Perception and Weathered Hunter are more where a bow build would avoid them and say a dagger crit melee build or a cast on crit wand build would grab up one or the other, the ranger starts lone 20% accuracy is another example I guess of one you would avoid.



mark has good points too. food for thought on reflect and stacking defenses, possible waffle

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I think getting ~20k evasion is quite unrealistic, huh? ;)

20k evasion is quite easy to get. Mid tier items should get you 20k easily. I am using fairly low evasion gear (750 from armor and 600 from helmet) and I have 13k evasion.

Great advices, i thank you all, good sirs!

The point about not relying on Ondar's Guile only to deal with reflected damage - is of course true. Poacher's Mark has some life getting back, and i surely understand importance of life leech, life on hit, etc. The thing about Ondar's guile, though, is that it's _evade_. And core evade mechanic - unlike dodge, for example, - is not exactly random; it's "enthropy system", one of effects of which is de-facto _guarantee_ that there won't be several hits in quick succession whenever we talk high (70%+) evade chance against such hits. In case of reflected damage of shots which hit many targets per shot, this is invaluable (imho).

From what i can read in wiki, apparently reflected damage happens for elemental and physical separately, and so i guess in most cases it'll be just one of the two. Considering multi-projectile ice shot build i have in mind, we have some physical and some cold damage. Wiki says both types would be reflected in 14% amount. And then cold damage would be further reduced by the character resist (which end-game is supposed to be 75% or bit higher, i recon), while at least a bit of physical would be further mitigated by armour. I suspect that all that, plus high enough evade chance vs reflected damage, and enough life steal (i guess Vaal Pact would be useful end-game, since worst of reflected damage situations come when many targets - up to dozen+ - are hit by one shot) - all this together should suffice to solve the reflected damage problem.

Obviously, such a build would also benefit from high base evasion against most melee attacks, which is surely a good thing. Which leaves enemy spells being potentially the worst killer. Though i usually get as much walk/run speed as i can (passives, boots), and quicksilver flask for times i need to run _really_ fast. Together with maxed resists, this is my general plan for dealing with spells, and i hope it'll be enough.

As for passive nodes, i think i'll start her a Scion. There are some +curse_effect passives i want to get end-game (for a total of +24% curse effects; with quality this could potentially boost temporal chains to ~40% slowing of enemies by de-facto AoE bow attack, and this is one great thing to do in parties as well as solo, i recon), and quite conviniently, Scion can make rather good "archer" build at the start without taking any accuracy except just one plain +20 accuracy node. All things said produce something like this: https://poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgAA8pebXVpSqJpKyIMJYENuPQOWOyhMMiMx7HSJa-KA6yxFln1brEeq-Fb6_MXdDSzpFSAqTaiiwdh46wqb5wolP6vS2o3Win8rd9cgnFFMGYacMk5tpcSTJ7QMRnE8KJy-DR9Bh_noGDy9J5M6CGexMCLqm7XDOspKtQhxoY9Pgsco-uvubqq18qluKji4k6cIj0aboXgvGGp85VgH , and while little, there is still room for more passive goodies to take end-game, i guess.

That basic build idea looks interesting but i hate to say that it will not work for endgame for several reasons:

1. You have way too little increased maximum life! The strongest regular mobs in endgame can hit you for ~3k damage (even more for some bosses but you should be more careful there anyway) if they have any sort of extra damage or powerful crits etc, which happens quite often. This means that you will need to have at least a bit more life than that and better around 3.5-4k for a ranged evasion char. With average gear you will have around 1.5k base life at lvl 80 so you should have at least ~120% increased maximum life to reach the minimum of 3.2-3.5k life.

2. You have very little damage and accuracy! I understand that you don't want to have too much accuracy due to reflect but having too little is even worse. >250% increase to damage and +80-100% to accuracy will work well for an evasion based build but more damage is always good. I personally aim for 250% damage increase for a crit build and 300-400% for a non-crit one. Here is my Ranger build with which i could do any endgame content including Atziri at lvl 85 if you want something for comparison.

There are many ways to make a successful build but they all have in common that you need a balance of offense and defense as a basis before you can follow any special ideas like curse or aura effect etc.

The link i gave has 42 points remaining, which in my noobish opinion means that there are 27 more points to allocate @lvl85. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Getting +120% life from passives, which you seem to advocate, consumes 24 points for this particular build. And ~20 of them are +life% nodes. 3 remaining points can be spent for extra 18% attack speed. And probably should be in this "+life% fest" - not on some little more +damage%.

See, with every "next" percent of +damage% you get, its efficiency diminishes. Simple example: let's say you do 1000 damage per shot. Then you get +100% bow damage, spending (just for simplicity) say 10 passive points. Effect: you now kill mobs _twice_ faster. Then you spend 10 more to get another +100% bow damage, and so you do 3000 damage per shot now. Effect: you now kill mobs 1.5 times faster than when you were doing 2000 per shot. Result: spending initial 10 points for +% bow damage was much more effective in terms of killing speed than spending another 10 points to the same +% bow damage.

In terms of DPS, in D2, in D3, in PoE, and in any game which mixes several DPS mechanics together based on "base value" and "bonus percentage" - most efficient is to weight gains and mix bonuses in optimal proportions.

The link i posted above has +142% bow+projectile damage. However it also has (counting +18% i added now) +55% attack speed from passives as well. You didn't mention attack speed at all. And i dare think thank 142% damage plus +55% attack speed should be nearly as high DPS (if not higher) than 250% damage with _zero_ bonus attack speed.

Next, this build has 22 points spent for curse passives and nodes leading to them. With this amount, it surely could get some ~250% bonus damage from passives. However, it wouldn't have an extra curse on hit available, curse durations would be 2+ times shorter, and their effect a quarter weaker. Which in case of Poacher's Mark means less frenzy charges gained on average, lower evasion penalty inflicted by the curse, less life on hit - all that from both weaker effect and lower duration of the curse (combat situations vary, eh?). How much DPS those "better curse passives" provide? And how much more DPS one can get from using a whole _extra_ curse on hit? This is rather difficult to calculate, but i suspect the loss is substantial.

On the other hand, we can calculate the loss of DPS for running with +142% bonus damage instead of +250%, easily, assuming, say, 2000 DPS as a purely abstract base DPS (everything else being "the same"):

100% DPS = 2000 + 250% bonus = 7000 DPS
X% DPS = 2000 + 142% = 4840 DPS

X% = 4640 * 100% / 7000 = 69.14%.

Roughly 70%. Which means, where your "proper" build would kill a pack in say 10 seconds, my would spend ~14 seconds to do the same even if we _forget_ about extra DPS (and safety) which curses bring, AND if your build has same +55% attack speed (which it possibly do not).

On top of all, those +10 intellect nodes leading to curse passives - have value as well. Lots of awesome intellect-based gems, including summons, are available. For example, level 20 zombie has 2450 health, and you get three of them. That's 7k+ health ahead of you. Then skellies, wraith and whatever else you deem fancy. Obviously, you could get required intellect from gear; however, with those 10 +10 intellect passives, instead of having +100 intellect on gear, you can have something else instead. Like, something DPSish, you know? ;)

Here's the link to the "lvl 85" version of what i am talkin' about (same as above, just added +120% life and +18% attack speed): https://poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgAA8pebXVpSqJpKyIMJYENuPQOWOyhMMiMx7HSJa-KA6yxFln1brEeq-Fb6_MXdDSzpFSAqTaiiwdh46wqb5wolP6vS2o3Win8rd9cgnFFMGYacMk5tpcSTJ7QMRnE8KJy-DR9Bh_noGDy9J5M6CGexMCLqm7XDOspKtQhxoY9Pgsco-uvubqq18qluKji4k6cIj0aboXgvGGp85VgHNZLYvWegh3bjn0p9_o9N46ZXOuHyRf4KjX0wfCP2TZIi4kfi0IGkOfGzb55LV8DjbEZybDIJ .


P.S. And frankly, i really doubt that i will need so high +life%. Some people may need it, yes. But like i said, i am one old-time fan of glass cannon builds. And i ain't playing hardcore with this. So believe me, +120% life for _me_ - is a definite overkill. :D

P.P.S. Oh, and about accuracy... If it will be such a big problem, then there is always "plan B", which is to drop 2 curse passive bits (keeping just the extra curse), and get "Resolute Technique" instead, together with less damage from crits and extra armor nearby. Others have told above that reflected damage is "just damage", and so i guess it won't be coming back with "can't evade this shot" feature, thus still allowing Ondar's Guilde to do its job. If so, then whole big deal about accuracy will be solved. Yes, no crits - but this build ain't crit heavy to begin with, plus, absense of infrequent crits will be well compensated by 100% hit rate. To sum up - may be this whole build of mine is not the best in the world, ain't cookie-cutter, but it seems worthy to try and see how it goes; and may be it has the potential to bring something unusual good to party play. I guess only time and gameplay will tell. %)

You have 100% hit chance with Resolute Technique. Reflected shots do take your accuracy into consideration. I am pretty sure you will always hit yourself with reflected damage if you have Resolute Technique.

If you plan to go bows, it is generally best to go Crit route as that scales the best.

It seems that you got me wrong but i appreciate the fact that you took so much time writing all that down to correct what you saw as my mistakes - and i don't mean that in a sarcastic way ;)

I only commented on the damage and accuracy part of the DPS calculation since that was the part mostly lacking and your attack speed increase is decent in that build. If you look at my build again, you will also realize that i have a third multiplier on top in form of a high increase of critical strike chance and -damage so taking your example, its damage output wouldn't be 7000 but rather around 15000 at 50% critchance and slightly below 340% critical strike multiplier (don't remember the exact value and cannot log in right now to check).
It is obvious that you will reach the highest theoretical damage output if you simply stack on multipliers and increase them all in a similar fashion but that kind of thinking leaves out a lot of other factors. You will, for example, have a better mana efficiency with slower, bigger hits and can apply status ailments better on high hp mobs and bosses since each hit has to be over a certain threshold in terms of damage/monster_hp. Since your damage is also delivered in discrete portions (unless you use damage over time skills obviously), it is more efficient to "frontload" your damage a bit because most mobs will die in just a few hits. This means that adding a bit extra damage can often bring you over the threshold of needing just 1-2 instead of 2-3 hits per mob but that is something you will have to test for your specific build.
A faster attack speed, on the other hand, makes effects like life gain on hit and adding flat damage from jewellery etc. more efficient. The numbers i used in my other post are merely suggestions on what will work based on my own experience.

The 120% max life increase i suggested would be considered way too low by most other build makers. Even if you are gods gift to gaming, have a good connection, a beast of a computer and are confident that you can manually evade every single bigger attack, you will still be hit eventually - and if it is because of server/client desynchronization. The result is quite simple: if you have less than a certain amount of life, you will get one-shot more or less frequently, which will slow down your leveling progress quite a bit.
The amount of life you need depends on your playstyle but for a ranged evasion char i would suggest aiming for at least around 800 for the end of Normal, 1400 end Cruel, 2000 end Merciless and 3000+ for lvl 75+ maps. Much less than that and you will have a hard time progressing since you loose exp when dieing in higher difficulties.

By the way: If you get very good gear, you can obviously achieve the same with less life increase from passives. The 120% are just my personal rule of thumb since i play mostly without trading and therefore usually don't have access to the really good stuff.
This is not about being tanky as a 'tanky' build is usually one with 4500+ life and stacked secondary defenses, it is about being able to survive a single big hit that you cannot evade. I killed Atziri with the build i linked above at exactly 3301 life, which everybody told me would be impossible. I managed to evade almost all of her spells manually and when i eventually got hit and managed to use the right elemental flask (short time 85% fire/lightning resistance), i would only loose 90-95% of my life from a single hit so i had a very low ~200 life buffer between survival and instant death from any of her attacks/spells.

I am not trying to push my own build ideas onto you but merely warn you about making the most common beginner mistake of thinking you could progress without a decent amount of maximum life. I made the same mistake on my first build and over the past two years i have seen countless threads in this forum secion that usually go something like: "i have this super strong build and was killing things with easy but then i got to point XY in the game and now i die all the time."

The lvl 87 build you posted should work although you could optimize some pathing there and it would be a bit short on damage for my personal taste. I personally really enjoy making glass cannon builds but only if the "cannon" part also applies but if you have a very specific idea for your build: go for it!