The most logical argument against legacies

I rarely post on any game forums (after horrible experience of biased moderators on former EA UK forums aka Mordor) but Robert Paulson's response to OP's message was so illogical that I had to intervene

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Robert_Paulson wrote:

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Soepkieken wrote:

1) Why is an item made into legacy? What is the reason for this?

=> Because the item is deemed unbalanced or overpowered. The original version is an unwanted mistake.

False. In most cases it is because other parts of the game (such as passive tree) have been rebalanced, which in turn makes these items more powerful. The initial version of the items were often quite balanced at the time of their release.

My experience is exact opposite. Most OP items are OP right from the beginning. Most importantly however even if you were right it does not make having legacies more justifiable.

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Robert_Paulson wrote:

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Soepkieken wrote:

2) Why does an item that is unbalanced or overpowered need to be changed?

=> Because having unbalanced or overpowered items in the game is bad for the game, otherwise they wouldn't be changed.

As has been mentioned, their is no competitive ladder in the permanent leagues, and no legacy items in the temp leagues, so how is the existence of legacy items unhealthy for a PvE environment? Someone I don't know having a legacy Shav's (or whatever) does not effect my (or your) gameplay at all.

Just as an example:
1. There are ladders for permanent leagues and surely some people are interested in it even if there are no prices
2. As it has been already mentioned: economy
3. As it has been already mentioned: party play
4. You completetely excluded PvP for no reason

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Robert_Paulson wrote:

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Soepkieken wrote:

3) What is the effect of changing unbalanced or overpowered items?

=> They add to a more balanced and better game.

No. That would simply stop players such as yourself peering over the neighbours fence and being envious of huw lush and green their lawn is. It would have zero effect on someone who doesn't have legacy items (excluding PvP, which if you want to participate in and avoid facing legacy equipped characters, you should just play in a temp league).

I can't be bothered disecting the rest of your post but suffice to say, as much as you try to present it as irrefutable logic...

First. Could you give even a single reason why fair PvP should only be made possible in temporary leagues. How about those people who can't put countless hours of gaming in one league

Second. The green lawn argument for PvE cannot be (completely) excluded. You are right that envy of better gear itself does not make game unbalanced but this feeling might very well turn people to play other games instead.


Ideal solution (at least from players' perspective):
The only real solution to the legacy problem would be to keep the old permanent leagues but to also create new ones where the stats of the items would always follow the newest values that GGG thinks are good. This would also allow having the old pasive trees in the legacy leagues. Unfortunately my suggestion will most likely not come true in PoE due to the fact that GGG has techinal limitations in changing values of legacies, which would be needed quite often to keep the new leagues I suggested running as intended. Because of this I belive we permanent league players are just going to have to live with the legacies until possible PoE 2 comes whether we like having legacies in the game or not.

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Soepkieken wrote:

It's not up to you to decide what Standard League is anyway.

Yes, but it's up to GGG to decide and they have made their decision - it isn't worth the effort, lots of disappointed players etc.

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Richeart wrote:

First. Could you give even a single reason why fair PvP should only be made possible in temporary leagues. How about those people who can't put countless hours of gaming in one league

Do you think they could compete in perm leagues against people who can put countless hours of gaming in it?

The best way to wipe all the legacies from the game would be to do a complete WIPE of standard and hardcore leagues.

Worth it?

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Soepkieken wrote:

A million pointless arguments[/i]

Who gives a F*** about other people's gear?If you don't like Legacies don't use them. If you don't have them, don't be jealous. If you can buy them ,don't buy them..There's no reason to create the 1000th thread on the matter..

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Iluvatar_gr wrote:

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Soepkieken wrote:

A million pointless arguments[/i]

Who gives a F*** about other people's gear?If you don't like Legacies don't use them. If you don't have them, don't be jealous. If you can buy them ,don't buy them..There's no reason to create the 1000th thread on the matter..

This is like the hacking going on

You can't see them hacking nor does it affect you at all (other then trading same as legacies) so why not allow it? hurdur

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almostdead wrote:

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Richeart wrote:

First. Could you give even a single reason why fair PvP should only be made possible in temporary leagues. How about those people who can't put countless hours of gaming in one league

Do you think they could compete in perm leagues against people who can put countless hours of gaming in it?

I am not PvP oriented player but my guess would be yes. If you may I use myself as an example. I would definetly not have been able to play my main (level 92 shadow) to his current level and gear in one league (Domination in this case). If I would now orient my build to PvP and sell his gear to buy PvP gear I am sure he would make good PvP char.

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Richeart wrote:

4. You completetely excluded PvP for no reason

Nope, I addressed it in my next point.

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Richeart wrote:

First. Could you give even a single reason why fair PvP should only be made possible in temporary leagues. How about those people who can't put countless hours of gaming in one league

legacy vs legacy PvP in standard is fair. You can mainly play standard and still low level PvP in a temp league with very little effort.

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Richeart wrote:

Second. The green lawn argument for PvE cannot be (completely) excluded. You are right that envy of better gear itself does not make game unbalanced but this feeling might very well turn people to play other games instead.

I quit PoE in early 2014 after playing for about a year. Gave away all my stuff. Returned halfway through last leagues. When league ended continued playing in standard. Wanted legacy item. Bought it.
Sorry, what was your point?

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Richeart wrote:

Ideal solution (at least from players' perspective):
The only real solution to the legacy problem would be to keep the old permanent leagues but to also create new ones where the stats of the items would always follow the newest values that GGG thinks are good. This would also allow having the old pasive trees in the legacy leagues. Unfortunately my suggestion will most likely not come true in PoE due to the fact that GGG has techinal limitations in changing values of legacies, which would be needed quite often to keep the new leagues I suggested running as intended. Because of this I belive we permanent league players are just going to have to live with the legacies until possible PoE 2 comes whether we like having legacies in the game or not.

Why not just have legacy and non-legacy queues for PvP? That's the only place it matters. Surely a PvP queue can check your items.

I will never understand how is letting some people keep an unbalanced item a better choice than simply nerfing all of the copies.

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Lynerus wrote:

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Iluvatar_gr wrote:

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Soepkieken wrote:

A million pointless arguments[/i]

Who gives a F*** about other people's gear?If you don't like Legacies don't use them. If you don't have them, don't be jealous. If you can buy them ,don't buy them..There's no reason to create the 1000th thread on the matter..

This is like the hacking going on

You can't see them hacking nor does it affect you at all (other then trading same as legacies) so why not allow it? hurdur

How can you compare people that use hacks to win races and get ahead in the 4 month ladders with people that are just using a legacy item that only exists in the permanent leagues and doesn't affect anyone?
Hurdur indeed
.

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Richeart wrote:

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almostdead wrote:

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Richeart wrote:

First. Could you give even a single reason why fair PvP should only be made possible in temporary leagues. How about those people who can't put countless hours of gaming in one league

Do you think they could compete in perm leagues against people who can put countless hours of gaming in it?

I am not PvP oriented player but my guess would be yes. If you may I use myself as an example. I would definetly not have been able to play my main (level 92 shadow) to his current level and gear in one league (Domination in this case). If I would now orient my build to PvP and sell his gear to buy PvP gear I am sure he would make good PvP char.

I'm not PvP oriented either but my guess would be no. Would be interesting to find out though.