Ranged Vs. Melee Disparity.

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LostKavi wrote:

So...in summery, Bows need less damage so mobs can actually reach them and maybe even hit them once - and melee needs more damage so they don't need to facetank the mobs for as long? O.o

Did I read that right?

Pretty much yeah you did. Not just bows, but everything ranged. Definetely les AoE damage. It would force ranged players, to get hit once in awhile as you said, or to play more carefully to NOT get hit, like backtracking. And of course reducing their clear speed. Melee needs alot more damage, and more easily accessible.

I have to point out, that the time of the "melee patch" in June 2013, people's reaction was negative saying the usual "melee's DPS is not the problem, survivability is", but the increased damage did help - ALOT. Not to mention that alot more damage, can give the option to players to easily stick enough DPS to spend more on defenses.

Personally I think armour is a good defence for melee, at least in HC leagues, but the buff % from the tree should be a bit higher, 2-3% higher per node. Against elemental damage, stun is a good defense but there should be other mechanisms too. But well, considering the existence of those streamers, I understand GGG hesitates to buff defenses for 2H.


Also, there should be more defensice skills that utilizes endurance charges.

For example, if there were a skill that blows off mobs knocking back for a long distance in a circle and giving temporal + max resi per charge which trigger consuming endurance charges, it could be useful for when desync.



Also it would be good idea adding 2h melee support gems which make 2h hit harder but with slower attack speed so that 2H melee can achieve same amount of tool tip DPS with other classes but as a pure physical damage. (Here I am not arguing the DPS with BiS items.) Physical damage more often tend to stun mobs by penetration so it adds a kind of defense. (IMO actually current stun is in a good position now. It is relatively easy to stun most of bosses in game by sacrificing dps.)



Current 2 H section of tree is quite boring, I guess most of non-tricky 2H builds pick up the same route. This is because there are not much weapon specific clusters in tree. For example if you chose 2h mace for your weapon, then there is almost no significant variation in picking up nodes on tree.

Considering limited number of skill points and not let the tree too complicated for new players, it will be difficult to design it with diversity. But if GGG changes to give 2 points per level, things would be quite different, but this wont happen.



Finally, I do not like to see 2H builds swing their weapon very fast, like more than 3-4 times per second. Not only 2H like a electronic fan, but also 2H like a professional wrestler, should be equally strong (here I am arguing AT). To achieve this, there should be defensive skills that require manual use while attacking with slow speed (meaning while pinned down in one location which is lethal currently).

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AlteraxPoe wrote:

They can shock me, stun me, freeze me, burn me.

This i also find quite interesting.

Why don't melee sided nodes have these value's inherently.

I know in the right side there are a few clusters that grant shock/freeze/chill and ignite "avoidance".(they are extremely rarely utilized if not non-existent in most set-ups)

What if melee nodes also had some "freeze/chill/shock and ignite reduced duration" value's attached to them.

So the damage received from these sources would not really be cut down, but the backlash of a critical hit of one of those would be more easily dealt with.

That is to say, the max resistances value's where mostly butchered on the passive tree and for good reason. But one of there side-effect's was in reality reducing the effects of these elements. What if instead of reducing the incoming damage (+max resis) the secondary effect's would be reduced, granting a similar ehp buff while not effecting game balance all that profoundly in pure damage output/input numbers.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

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AlteraxPoe wrote:

They can shock me, stun me, freeze me, burn me.

What if melee nodes also had some "freeze/chill/shock and ignite reduced duration" value's attached to them.

Peace,

-Boem-

I think dispel flasks do the job without much problems, at least using 2 ele dispel flask wont affect the game play that much. Reduced duration wont help much, imo. For example when you are shocked, it is a must to hit dispel shock, or rip.


I rather think 2H problems come from the slower attack speed that pins you down in one location.


Edit: How about giving Immortal call immunity to status alignments?

The only time melee was good everyone complained it was "path of melee" and GGG backhanded the shit out of melee.

The disparity arises from the fact that "traditional" rpg mechanics only really apply in a party. Where in Path of Exile it's a split off ARPG series were your technically suppose to be some sort of demigod slaying hoards upon hoards of monster rather then be in a functioning party. Even "traditional" rpg series with "standard" classes have big imbalance issues within itself so don't pretend that the "open do whatever you want" with path of exile is any better or worse then any older system.

First off the combat isn't a very visceral/meaty, engaging thing due to the nature of the game. What would be visceral/meaty/engaging type of game similar to an ARPG? Something like demon/dark souls, fighters or mobas.

There isn't skill involved, mechanics of enforced fighting styles, combat pacing or balance verses you slaying massive hoards of mobs.

It's like comparing different weapons to one another and saying "that's how they should function", like a dagger should penetration more armor and be faster but an axe should be heavier and crush bones or something. It doesn't exist because all you do is swing shit at an enemy and they lose some hp, so ofc attack speed = more damage. You can replace the weapons with "stick A" and "Rock B" and they would make no difference statistically to your character.

It is not like "dark souls" were the mechanics of the weapon themselves are different, have a different fighting style and moves attacked to them, hit in different ways, hit armor in different ways, and use different amounts of stamina along with weight(hell even hitting enemies with different weapons "feels" different). In PoE it's an animation of a character smacking a monster.

Which why is there seems a large "ranged vs melee" disparity at the highest levels with better gear. If my similar statistical character can deal similar amounts of damage with similar amounts of life and utility mechanics. Why wouldn't ranged be better then the melee variant?

For melee to be "equal" to range, you need to give them different mechanics from ranged. Even higher levels of melee viable builds, your attacks become "ranged" in a "Giant AoE" which try to apply as many "effects/status effects/curses" to as many enemies as possible. Actually every build is like that, it's the nature of an ARPG game were you can keep scaling upwards without restriction.

Which may be just a fault of the ARPG genre, a "classic arpg" with a variation might not be enough theses days. PoE did become it's own game but people are hardly calling it the "next generation of ARPGs." Much like a dark souls game would be.

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Boem wrote:

^I would like to point something out.

GGG has recently started with introducing some iand if they do care it will take them 2 years to even realise shit has hit the fan and start doing smn about it. By then many other games will be out, with less ignorant balance teams. Anw, you get the point.resting nodes for melee.

like the onslaught on axe kills and the culling strike on stun for maces. Now why are these nodes relevant?

Consider that GGG might be testing with the introduction of these nodes if they are worth it for ranged
type-builds to spec into or travel towards.

This is just an assumption i am making obviously, but if it is correct and the data demonstrates that a minor part of the ranged community is actually utilizing these nodes and not at a very efficient rate, we might start to see some EHP modifiers at the end of weapon clusters being introduced in the future.

I always believed this was a way to fix melee, by creating EHP modifiers at the end-line of a 6 nodes cluster, requiring a massive investment before actually gaining the benefit.

Peace,

-Boem-

Spectral throw fcks this idea up.

Seriously, i had tons of improvements for melee in mind, and spectral throw fcks over half of them.
What they can do however is introduce a "on melee hit" mechanic and add defensive bonuses every time a hit is done with said weapon.
I had posted a simillar idea a year ago but a little bit differently.
The previous idea was for melee skill gems to give defensive bonuses each time they are used/used on enemy.
For example: each hit with heavy strike adds 10% armor, stacks 5 times. Dont mind the numbers thats simply an example.
A combination of both could be implemented to balance melee.
The bad thing is ggg doesnt give a fck, ans

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Poutsos wrote:

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LostKavi wrote:

So...in summery, Bows need less damage so mobs can actually reach them and maybe even hit them once - and melee needs more damage so they don't need to facetank the mobs for as long? O.o

Did I read that right?

Pretty much yeah you did. Not just bows, but everything ranged. Definetely les AoE damage. It would force ranged players, to get hit once in awhile as you said, or to play more carefully to NOT get hit, like backtracking. And of course reducing their clear speed. Melee needs alot more damage, and more easily accessible.

I have to point out, that the time of the "melee patch" in June 2013, people's reaction was negative saying the usual "melee's DPS is not the problem, survivability is", but the increased damage did help - ALOT. Not to mention that alot more damage, can give the option to players to easily stick enough DPS to spend more on defenses.

The problem with this, it's a very good idea, but in poe a change like this limits melee to scrubcore and ranged to hc. Even if they clear slower, ranged will still be safer in poe and that is the problem with melee in this game right now and always.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

One last point: Unwavering Stance changes everything melee-wise. Being a Dex melee player, I'd not taken it before but good lord stun immunity is amazing.

Not to make this dexmelee vs strmelee. Just pointing out they are very different experiences, almost to a point where sometimes I feel Dex melee shouldn't even be a thing in PoE.

I'm currently playing an unwavering Static striker with Doomsower, and my gear is hardly best in slot for damage, but my output and clearspeed is FANTASTIC. I chew through mobs faster than any build I've ever done, and is so satisfying. Stun immunity means I don't need to worry about desync even HALF as much as any other build, you'd be astonished *cough cough*

The drawback?


If I fall asleep on my pots, I die.

I REALLY wish that 2 handeds could get some additional defenses rolled into their weapon stats - even if it's boring stuff like +hp. My current favorite node in the entire tree right now is "Soul of Steel" and if we could get a few more like those, that'd be great. Armor is good for surviving lots of white trash, but I can still get instagibbed by a pack of magic titans with a +damage modifier with 5k armor and ~55% mitigation. 2 handers really can't block that well, (ahem, at all) so we need % mitigation more than anyone else. Grabbing those nodes buried deep in armor and/or weapons trees would be an absolute godsend for those of us who don't want to sword and board.

Doesn't even need to be that much. 12-16% dotted about the tree would be enough I'd think. Just enough to take the bite out of those massive hits which people with unwavering stance have no choice but to eat wholly. (hell, stick a notable BEHIND unwavering stance that gives 6-8% phys damage reduction. I'd grab that in a heartbeat.

I don't think melee is in that bad of shape really.

2h needs some love, and dual wield needs its block to be as available as it was prior to this patch 1h and shield is ok. This is from my standpoint anyway.

I don't really have any insurmountable problems running melee chars, it takes more effort than my ranged, but still doable.

Honestly, I can live with ranged being better than me in pretty much every respect/scenario.


The problem comes when I try to party with a ranged, then I become basically a useless burden.


I mentioned I have my wife playing a ranged char, so far I have her convinced she has to stay behind me.

"Yes Dear, you have to stay behind me otherwise you will die."

Eventually she is going to figure out this isn't the case. In reality she is helping me stay alive. (I'm 2h staff)


But if you are in a party with somebody who has been playing rpgs for more than a couple of weeks in their spare time its a different story.


Bam! they are just gone, I can't run fast enough to keep up with them, much less get ahead of them far enough to kill anything.

Hell, I can deal with all the extra stuff apparently purposely put in just to make melee harder.

I don't care if somebody using a bow, or casting a spell can wear the same heavy plate metal armor that I can.

But do they have to be able to run faster than me also?

Give me enough speed and I can deal with all the rest.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

One last point: Unwavering Stance changes everything melee-wise. Being a Dex melee player, I'd not taken it before but good lord stun immunity is amazing.

Not to make this dexmelee vs strmelee. Just pointing out they are very different experiences, almost to a point where sometimes I feel Dex melee shouldn't even be a thing in PoE.

It's mostly down to what is your definition of dex melee. Unwavering stance is a defensive option, that sacrifises evasion, but this does not restrict you in using dex based weapons. On the contrary dexterity offensively is used for 1) meet the requirments of dex based skill gems and weapons and 2) increases your accuracy, which is usefull mostly for crit based melee, as dex based weapons tend to be.

Since dex based weapons include daggers and claws, and is related to "crit-melee", i would say that dex melee is actually stronger than strength melee. Your claim can be backed if 1)YOu are playing low level characters and 2)Want to strictly role play a character, as he is "supposed" to be played(eg. Shadow being an ES/Evasion hybrid character that uses a dex weapon).

Legatus: You are right, however higher DPS means killing faster which increases your survivability. Also, for HC especially you could have relatively high DPS for fewer passives spent, in order to spend more on defense. This way you reduce your chances of RNG screwing you, penetrating your block/evasion etc.etc. and getting one shotted. Of course i am not against improving defenses for melee. But i do stand by my point that ranged has too much DPS/clear speed AND safety(which is closely related to the high DPS), and melee has too little. Let's not forget that the first person that got to 100 on beyond, the hardest HC league yet was an BoR/aegis aurora max block tank. So high defenses for melee existed in the game, and got nerfed in this patch, but even when melee did have these options, it was still very weak compared to high end DPS heavy ranged(Spectral THrow). In that very same league HvR was constistently destroying Uber Atziri with ST.