Ranged Vs. Melee Disparity.

I started this as a reply to another thread, but I got long winded and drifted off the posters topic. (Was a post on the nerfing of melee uniques) Didn't want to waste the time I had in it, then was going to post in general, but decided it was more feedback oriented.



The problem is the balance rpgs were originally designed with has been thrown out the door.


It used to be that classes were restricted by the type of gear they could wear.



Melee type fighters were the only ones who could wear plate armor and be fully functional and even then it carried some drawbacks. But, armor was actually good. The best defense you could have.

Here anybody can wear any armor with pretty much no restrictions and the protection heavy plate type armor provides is arguably the lest effective defense stat available.

Yeah its strength based, but so what - there are several ways to get that, and even so it hardly matters since you are better of with a chest with crap armor that has life and tri res. Way better off.

Then you had chain mail, which if I remember correctly was the heaviest armor a bow char could functionally wear. Had pretty good armor, but not as good as plate. (Unless you are comparing godly elven chain against not so good plate that is.)

Then you had various leather armors. Not as good as plate or chain, but still effective and allowed dexterity based chars to move sufficiently to perform their attacks. We don't have a 'thief' type class in poe - but they were to be restricted to this type of armor if they actually wanted to use their 'thief' based skills.

Finally cloth. Casters had to wear cloth. No metal. Largest metal item a caster could wear was a small dagger. Casters were weak at first (logically) and very strong later (damage wise) but still balanced by having this drawback.


While we are on the subject of damage, a huge two handed sword - only usable by a fighter btw - logically did the most physical dps, but was slower. Then you had your other various swords and possibly staves/maces and what have you and at the bottom small weapons like daggers.

Bows (depending on how good a bow you had) were somewhere between dagger and 1h weapons damage wise. Not great damage but balanced out by being Ranged. Ranged is its own advantage.
Extremely rare bows also had elemental damage, but not almost every one. Also, you had to deal with arrows, endless quivers were rare also, not each and every one. You know, to balance the advantage given by being ranged.

Casters did huge elemental damage (among other things, like status effects) and they could do it at a range, but they were weak defense wise.




But, all this has been tossed out and no restrictions added to maintain the balance.

Armor doesn't provide the best protection anymore, its overshadowed by almost everything else.

Not that it matters because everybody can wear anything anyway.

Everybody can cast spells at will, even automatically, with little restriction.

2h weapons are no longer the damage kings.


So what you have are builds that can use the most advantageous items/mechanics in the game. Not the best for that class, but the best there is, with no restrictions to speak of.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you allow that, the one thing that is physically an advantage is going to be king.

Ranged is its own advantage because physically you can avoid most if not all of the inherent in being close up. GGG makes this worse with a huge number of 'up close' issues. Ground effects, poison clouds, exploding mobs, status effects on hit, and on and on and on.

This is on top of the physical damage you would expect to take by being in hand to hand combat. (Inherent)

Then you have ranged mobs, who also get to attack the poor melee slob. To be expected (also Inherent), but its another advantage of ranged, they still attack ranged chars but at least you are on equal footing with them.



NOTE:

I gather all the balance restrictions were tossed out so we could have more "variety." However it doesn't work that way functionally. What it actually does is reduce variety. The best/easiest char to play is ranged. Not the best in some situations, the best period.

This is especially sad because one of the main attractions for me to Poe is its melee combat feel. I would say its the best of any game I've played. I have ranged chars, but they just don't have the 'feel' melee does for me and so I will continue to mainly play melee even given the disadvantages imposed.

I understand this isn't a GGG specific thing, but more of an industry trend if you will. Nobody wants to have to deal with restrictions, and everybody wants to cast spells and have unlimited fire power.

But without these restrictions, melee will always fall short because of the physical advantage of being ranged.


New Melee Gems, my experience:

Vengeance, Reckoning, Riposte. I've tried Vengeance and Reckoning, they aren't really very good. Ok to stick in an open gem slot - better than nothing. Perhaps if they had enough supports attached, but who has a bunch of extra linked slots for that?

Even if they did work awesome, it would suck because they completely remove the combat 'feel' I like.

Riposte, don't know, haven't tried. My main was a dual wield before this patch and it got block nerfed so hard I gave up on it.

Wasn't max block either, but by the time I put a bunch more passives in to get what I had (or less) I lose on dps or hp. I'm pretty used to this by now though, pretty much every patch since ob started has made my non exploitive non op char weaker, supposedly to level out the "OP" builds.

(Pretty sure that's BS, the people who have the currency for those build just move on to the next one - I think the real point is to slow down the majority of players - but that's another topic.)

Anyway, I'll go out on a limb here and say I'm pretty sure its just like the other two, better than nothing, but not very good unless you spend more slots than its worth on it and removes the hand to hand feel in any case.

Static Strike is pretty good. Not that I think its 'OP', but given the other changes its superior to dual or double strike. Double strike is basically dead, and dual can't compete with the aoe of static in a practical sense.

It screwed up my reflect balance, so I had to adjust for that, but otherwise it works well on a 1h/shield build. On the other builds I've tried with static they seem 'squishy.' Granted these are my own, so there may be some other approaches out there.

Overall it feels like we killed off one option (Dual strike) and made one weaker (Double Strike) and got one decent and reasonably balanced skill (Static Stike).

Unfortunately, its a step away from the 'feel' I keep going on about.

I made a SS Staff Templar yesterday from a lvl 80 I had with a clean tree. Lots of dps, but a bit squishy. Can fix that a bit, but still not going to be very defensive in the end.

However, the problem is that I attack and he pokes the mob a couple times with short little jabs which feel cut off and don't even look like they hit the mob, and then Poof! static kicks in and everything dies. Effective, but feels, I don't know how to describe it, disconnected? plastic like?

My 1h/shield char doesn't 'feel' so 'off." Maybe an animation change would make staff 'feel' more connected?




But, dps isn't the issue. Its defense. Melee should not 'feel' 'squishy'. So really all 4 of the 'Melee' skills failed to address the actual issue. I had enough dps before, what I don't have is defense.

As a Melee Char I need superior defense because I have much more to deal with than I do as a Ranged Char.

The way it is now any char has much the same defense available to them that a melee does.


Long story short, melee got more of what it didn't really need (although the aoe is nice), and less of what it does.


Not really sure how to fix this since anybody can wear/do anything.

If you were to say, increase the effectiveness of armor, then that would be available to everyone and wouldn't alter the situation fundamentally.

Perhaps if armor became much more effective at very close range? Would have to be close otherwise ranged would be able to take advantage of it also.

Even then it wouldn't address the various ground/status effects a ranged char just shoots over. I understand there are more resist nodes available in the 'melee' areas of the tree, but since most resists come from gear its not an effective solution.

Max resists are a requirement, not an option.

Maybe res could become more effective at close range also?

Not sure how the 'at close range' thing would affect coding and/or desync/lag so I don't know if its a viable suggestion or not.

Then you have the issue of a Ranged char just running up close and gaining the advantage anyway especially with Point Blank. Would to some degree make them 'melee' at that point, but they would still retain the ranged advantages in many situations anyway.



I don't want to give the impression I think melee isn't viable as a playstyle, it is.

I also don't want to give the impression I think the gap between the two is a huge gulf or anything, but a disparity does exist and I would love it to be mitigated without losing the 'feel' of Poe I like so well.


Not really sure where the solution is, or even if there is one given the way Poe is constructed, but I thought I'd give my thoughts on the matter and see if they stir up anything useful.




TLDR:

Ranged is its own advantage, mainly defensively but also reach.

If you let everybody wear/do anything with basically no restrictions its always going to come out on top, particularly if you make the easiest defense available to melee the weakest.

Compound this with a huge number of ground effects/ailments which mainly affect melee on top of the extra physical damage expected in hand to hand and there is no way to "balance" it out unless melee is provided with extra defense.

"

AlteraxPoe wrote:

I gather all the balance restrictions were tossed out so we could have more "variety." However it doesn't work that way functionally. What it actually does is reduce variety. The best/easiest char to play is ranged. Not the best in some situations, the best period.

This is the money-shot imo.

Counter-intuitive to what the open system suggest's at first glance, given the nature of an ARPG is to collect loot and grind (personal opinion) the player-base seeks out the most efficient ways to do just that.

Now because of the lack of type's of adventitious gear to all character "arch-types" it all bowls down to a single set of gear for any and all character arch/skill-type.

Peace,

-Boem-

(ps : beat the horse, beat it good, it releases built up tension)

I still don't get why nodes on the tree aren't better for melee.

However many of my ideas for buffing melee are hurt by the friggin spectral throw skill. You really screwed the pooch with that one GGG in regards to ever trying to fix this issue. Now you will have to look for an even more creative way to solve the problem.

Best I can come up with now is benefits for characters that are closer to the mobs. That will most likely STILL help ranged though to some extent. Honestly with how long this has been an issue I really don't think that GGG cares much about it.

^ The solution, if it is ever decided that there needs to be one, lies in building core game mechanics that reference skill gem tags. If there were rules that affected specific tags only, then balance can be more fine-tuned than throwing a wrench at the tree and calling it a day. I am in favor of GGG adoping this design philosophy for many things--to expand the "rules" to be more specific--as it allows them to specifically target problem areas while minimizing the "collateral damage."

The only limitation with affecting skill tags, is that the rules can only be effective while a skill is being used... there is no other way for the system to classify something as "melee" or "ranged," as you have pointed out.

A pretty fair way to save melee is to obv. introduce a certain % of block (or make up another kind of not-get-hit definition such as dodge/evade/spell dodge) to a big majority of the weapon nodes for melee.

You could (and frequently did) block attacks with the weapons handles etc. not just the blade/notch/top back in the days, so i don't see why all 2-handing exiles got a stroke and forgot how to block attacks.

It would also make sense to introduce certain life/armor nodes that grants % flat reduction to damage if using melee weapons.
Because you know, it makes more sense that someone that invests in a shitload of life and armor and prowess in close combat could absorb blows better than a small woman (typical SRS witch or crittwitch) that shouts (endurying cry) and then shouts again (immortal call) and becomes immune to it.

How about one good way to stop shitting on melee is to stop designing mobs that shit on melee?

P-link? Minor annoyance for ranged because they just kite. Melee cant kite OR leech off plink.
Smoke mine mobs - shitting on melee
Heralds of the obelisk stacking - shitting on melee

Every new patch at least one of these gets added, I mean come on GGG.

Why its always Melee vs Ranged? Versus? Melee shouldn't be equal to ranged. Melee just must be playable. Without getting 1 shoted, with lots of armor and defences, and something. GGG just need to make melee when we can play and have fun. Just forget about *versus* thing.

When you all start to say this thing is better than that thing, its usually that thing got nerfed to suck as much as this thing.

So no "versus" ranged please. Just need to make melee fun to play. Stop to compare everything. Stop to compare gems too, if one gem is too OP, dont cry " Whaaa, that gem is too OP, make this gem to be too OP too, whaa" Gems needed to be fun to play, not to be too OP but not to suck either.

Ask about making things to be enjoyable to play.

For example I like Groundslam gem, but I wont play it as melee never again, you know why? Because Groundslam suck compare to... No! Because it takes to damn long to kill even white mob, not fun at all!! Get it?

Did you get it guys? Cuz if not, if you continue to make "versus|" threads, there will be a lot more nerfs. Some of you like to screw up others fun but if you dont, stop!

What your post basically describes is the inherent flaw that GGG has with their open system that they use and their hesitation (Inability? Short-sightedness? Something else?) to add restrictions to it. On the surface having such a huge amount of openness seems like it would be a boon for promoting build diversity and creativity, and in the short-term it seems that way as we have seen now. There is certainly no shortness of builds that players can come up with, but there's one problem with it...it's not the characters that are part of the builds. It's purely the skills and synergies between them and items that the players have found that is showing off the build diversity. What got left in the dust were the characters...they are nothing more than 'dress-up dolls' in the grand scheme of things, even more so than some might say in other ARPGS that are out there/have been out there.

At its core, this is one of the biggest reasons that GGG has such glaring issues with melee vs. ranged and why there is really not going to be a way to rein this all in. Think about it...what makes a Ranger a Ranger? What makes a Witch a Witch? Is it that the Ranger is the master of bow skills? That she can do things with a bow that no other character can? Same for the Witch; is she the best spell caster in the game that no other class can compete with? The honest answer to both of those is 'NO'. Sure, some are going to argue that the Ranger is -technically- better for XX build because she has XX amounts of damage and point efficiency, but when you break it down and really look at it the differences are so small that you're venturing into the min/max territory. Once you hit that point (IMHO) you're splitting hairs and losing sight of the forest for the trees so to say.

Bit of side tangent but it still gets to the point that I am getting at...without some class distinction, without some types of boundaries and restrictions, there will never, ever, ever be anything that GGG can do to balance melee vs. ranged. What GGG has done with their huge, open system is actually created something that is much, much, much harder to balance because they can't just nerf/buff things without having to think about what this will do for every 'class' (or rather starting point) on the passive tree and in terms of how it'll affect weapons/armor/jewelry. It's a huge headache and I am sure that in the short term GGG logically thought that this way to go with such an open system would promote huge diversity and make their game all the better. Again, it has, but not in the way they likely imagined it, and now they are really stuck with problems that are more core game based rather than just superficial stuff. It's gotten even worse with more and more things being added to the game in terms of making it more challenging, like the Bloodlines mods for example, but those things also bring out more and more the flaws that melee face.

If GGG really wants to start making changes to melee to improve this subset of builds then class and ability restrictions are going to have to be a hard reality they're going to have to accept. Open systems don't work in long-term practice and attempting to try and balance them means that extreme measures and jumping through hoops have to be made, and even then the amount of effort may not reach an acceptable outcome. The passive tree in this game can only do so much and it's really starting to show these problems more and more as the game progresses. Restrictions are not a bad thing, and actually make it easier to balance because there may only be one or two classes that will be affected (such as say if only the Templat and Marauder could use Infernal Blow as a skill and IB was too powerful for whatever reason, then it can be tweaked and tuned with those two classes in mind, and the rest don't matter) by something that needs to be done.

Now, do I know the magical panacea that is going to help bring melee and ranged more into line? No, I most certainly do not, but IMHO the starting point lies in GGG needing to realize that their philosophy of such 'class freedom and openness' is not the way to go. Can that be done in this particular game and with how long it's been out? Perhaps...perhaps not...PoE may be too far down the proverbial rabbit hole to make the necessary changes needed for better parity between melee and ranged. At this point changes to superficial structure things like enemy abilities and number tweaking and trying to fit 'melee-only' benefits into the passive tree (making them as unappealing to ranged as possible) may be the only options. Sadly, I would have to think up some other things that would fit those lines, but currently my mind has nothing in terms of suggestions at this point in time. :\

^I would like to point something out.

GGG has recently started with introducing some interesting nodes for melee.

like the onslaught on axe kills and the culling strike on stun for maces. Now why are these nodes relevant?

Consider that GGG might be testing with the introduction of these nodes if they are worth it for ranged
type-builds to spec into or travel towards.

This is just an assumption i am making obviously, but if it is correct and the data demonstrates that a minor part of the ranged community is actually utilizing these nodes and not at a very efficient rate, we might start to see some EHP modifiers at the end of weapon clusters being introduced in the future.

I always believed this was a way to fix melee, by creating EHP modifiers at the end-line of a 6 nodes cluster, requiring a massive investment before actually gaining the benefit.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

The_Great_Alex wrote:

Why its always Melee vs Ranged? Versus? Melee shouldn't be equal to ranged. Melee just must be playable. Without getting 1 shoted, with lots of armor and defences, and something. GGG just need to make melee when we can play and have fun. Just forget about *versus* thing.

When you all start to say this thing is better than that thing, its usually that thing got nerfed to suck as much as this thing.

So no "versus" ranged please. Just need to make melee fun to play. Stop to compare everything. Stop to compare gems too, if one gem is too OP, dont cry " Whaaa, that gem is too OP, make this gem to be too OP too, whaa" Gems needed to be fun to play, not to be too OP but not to suck either.

Ask about making things to be enjoyable to play.

For example I like Groundslam gem, but I wont play it as melee never again, you know why? Because Groundslam suck compare to... No! Because it takes to damn long to kill even white mob, not fun at all!! Get it?

Did you get it guys? Cuz if not, if you continue to make "versus|" threads, there will be a lot more nerfs. Some of you like to screw up others fun but if you dont, stop!

As I pointed out, melee and ranged were equal, or much closer to it before all the balance already in rpgs got thrown out. Sometimes ranged was better back then also, and sometimes melee was. This is how I think it should ideally be.

I can't agree with you on the nerf thing. Yeah sometimes they do nerf things, but since open beta started my melee chars have gotten nerfed and my ranged buffed consistently even though we all know the disparity exists. So I don't think you have to worry honestly.

There will be a lot more nerfs no matter what we say, one reason is ggg does seem to try to strike a balance of some sort. Another reason is the ol' hamster wheel thing. If they change a bunch of stuff then we as players have to hop back on the wheel and spend a batch of time and effort rebuilding and adjusting. Basically keeping us busy without a lot of development effort. All online games I've played do this.



But putting all that aside, there is a more practical reason for GGG to want a closer 'balance' between the ranged vs melee.

I like to play melee more than I do ranged. I am not alone, many many people do, at a rough guess I would say half of the ppl playing rpgs.

I can deal with not being as good as ranged and as long as I play by myself its not a problem. In fact, its great. As I mentioned I think one of Poe's greatest strengths is its hand to hand 'feel'.

However, throw me in a party and things are not so good, now its an issue. I can't really pull my weight. No melee can if they are playing with a comparable ranged player/gear.

As an example, I have recently gotten my wife into playing Poe. For reference we are old enough that she would be considered a grandmother to most of the ppl playing poe.

Her entire gaming experience up until about 2 weeks ago was facebook mafia wars.

I will grant you I have done most (but not all) of her passive allocation, and I have pretty much given her the gear - but not awesome gear either, her bow is a lioneye's glare for instance.

So pretty much the same situation you would have if you copied a build from the tree and got some gear from a guild or did a little trading.

She is now lvl 80.

This is why I made that static strike staff char with one of my extra lvl 80's, so I could play with her around this level.

She is just now starting to 'catch on' to how to play the game and while she isn't as effective as me in maps yet, she's pretty close and will pass me up within 2 more levels I would say.


So, your grandmother with no prior gaming experience and using mediocre gear can within a couple weeks do better than somebody with 40 years of rpg experience, 80 stash pages of gear, and who has been playing poe since closed beta.

I might also add that I may not be the best melee in the world, but I have always preferred melee - for 40 years now, actually a little longer and I'm not that bad at it either. I have a lvl 91 duelist who can run most any map I can manage to acquire with little issue.

Good thing too, because by the time she hits 85 or so I'm going to have to switch to it to even stand a chance of being useful, or I could switch to a bow build and keep up with a lvl 75 or so.


Nobody really wants to suck in comparison to others in their party. Its no fun running around and not being able to kill anything because its all dead already.

Nobody wants a deadhead in their party that can't manage to kill anything either.


So, this pretty much eliminates anybody who likes melee and wants to play in a party.

I'm guessing this is a fairly large segment of rpg players.


I find this especially sad because as I've mentioned several times, the melee combant in Poe is very good. Kinda sucks to eliminate a large chunk of the people who would really enjoy the game.