Until melee is fixed, a lot of people will not comeback.

Well it's fine to play standard, there are plenty of skilled standard league guys.

Mainly the issue pops up when someone chimes in with an opinion based on nothing and tries to sell it to everyone else, especially when said player has little or no experience playing either melee or hc and when that opinion runs contrary to all logic evidence and experience.

It's fine to have an opinion but at the end of the day if you can't support that claim it means nothing, and you shouldn't try to force your "nothing" on everyone else disguised as a relevant fact.

"

Xavderion wrote:

They could make melee literally unkillable, it still wouldn't match a ranged char's clear speed :) Not sure what GGG could do.

It is quite easy:

aoe gems like LMP, GMP, Chain (and few others) need crit chance, crit multiplier or accuracy penalties on top of the flat damage penalty.

The solution is to alter the ranged chars and not to try bringing melee on the same level. Ranged chars are by nature hopelessly overpowered. They should work more like snipers instead of screenwide aoe. Therefore heavy aoe (with the above named gems) must be penalized more. They got to choose then if they want more aoe or more damage. Right now it is a bad joke: 2-3 shots screen clear, move on and repeat. I don't play such no brainer games, lol.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Well it's fine to play standard, there are plenty of skilled standard league guys.

Mainly the issue pops up when someone chimes in with an opinion based on nothing and tries to sell it to everyone else, especially when said player has little or no experience playing either melee or hc and when that opinion runs contrary to all logic evidence and experience.

It's fine to have an opinion but at the end of the day if you can't support that claim it means nothing, and you shouldn't try to force your "nothing" on everyone else disguised as a relevant fact.

I've said this before. There are two communities in PoE: one lives in the forums like the people chained to the floor in Plato's Cave parable staring at shadows on the wall, and the other community plays the game (and does it well). A percentage of each community dabbles in the other one (actually, all of the forum community dabbles in the game). I dabble in the forums. I'm here more now because the fucking game is broken for me at the moment. Ultimately, this leads to the forums being in their current state. How many of the best players do you actually see posting here? Or even looking here for that matter. Just pick and choose who you respond to. If you see one of these incessant posters with a main toon that has barely experienced the end game telling you what's what, just stop and ask yourself why the hell you should bother wasting your time even reading the shit. You know who they are. Don't read their shit and don't bother arguing with them because you'll just go in a circuitous path on a fucking mobius strip. Pointless. Ignore them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTWwY8Ok5I0

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

He hasn't made it to 90+ there, least of all on a melee character. He has THREE total hardcore characters, two of which are rangers, and one which is a duelist which he SAYS is from beyond (but could really be from any past league, such as the one where ele cleave was actually good), and is only level 82 anyways.

TLDR you are making this guy into something he's not. He's a standard league player who plays, primarily, ranged characters.

He doesn't have the experience, he has no logical ground for his opinion, and there's no data to support him. So he has literally nothing to contribute to this thread, period. Every word of text he types is doing nothing other than misleading people into believing an idea that is 100% false.

Im actually laughing at how ridiculous you are.

I have tried to walk on egg shells with you in the threads we have argued in, to give you ways out or ways of coming back to friendly terms without losing more face than you lost simply by sharing your builds etc. It's been hard not to completely destroy you, and it never helps anything to completely destroy someone in a debate because often they get such a dented ego that it becomes a war, they completely drop logic and just grasp at any straw to 'win'. If you were smart you would have met me half way on something and left it as "we will agree to disagree".

Sadly after your tree choices, gear choices and knowledge of playing the game have shown you to be fairly incompetent you have decided that your only way to 'win' is to discredit me as an individual in an attempt to distract from the fact that you have discredited yourself already. Sadly for you my hc characters are in the 80s, yours are in the 40s, I have a build guide in my sig dated from beyond league that talks about leveling that char self found in beyond, you have nothing to prove you have ever had a level 80 hc character in this game, anyone whos knows what they are talking about that looks at my character list can see Im a highly experienced player, what do we see looking at yours? Nothing, theres nothing there, time and time again you have proven your incompetence with things you have posted.

I dont want to have a verbal war with you, but you have destroyed yourself then gone on the war path to try and cover it up, Im stuck here between not wanting conflict with you but also feeling compelled to be honest for the sake of the subject matter. Its whatever mate, I dont care to carry on this nonsense with you, everyone regardless of agreeing with me or not on melee can see that you dont really know what you are talking about and you are too far gone down the broken ego madhole to ever see sense now, this conversation is pointless for all the reasons Gemdraco has pointed out and I shouldnt have ever bothered responding to you, hf and gl.

I really didn't want to get between you two. I have nothing against either of you.

P.S. - As far as people not coming back until melee is fixed, I don't think it's only about melee being nerfed into the ground. We're losing players for a host of reasons. Hopefully, act 4 is great. Hopefully, I can resolve my crashing issue soon so I can play again.

"

LSN wrote:

"

Xavderion wrote:

They could make melee literally unkillable, it still wouldn't match a ranged char's clear speed :) Not sure what GGG could do.

It is quite easy:

aoe gems like LMP, GMP, Chain (and few others) need crit chance, crit multiplier or accuracy penalties on top of the flat damage penalty.

The solution is to alter the ranged chars and not to try bringing melee on the same level. Ranged chars are by nature hopelessly overpowered. They should work more like snipers instead of screenwide aoe. Therefore heavy aoe (with the above named gems) must be penalized more. They got to choose then if they want more aoe or more damage. Right now it is a bad joke: 2-3 shots screen clear, move on and repeat. I don't play such no brainer games, lol.

Specific penalties to those gems would only result in a migration to Herald of Ash > Burn Proliferation for AoE.
Ice Shot is already like this, and in my opinion it is damn OP for clearing packs.

I think what really needs to happen is a GGG Development Manifesto post on Game Balance, and/or Build Diversity since the two are closely related. Whenever there are major balance changes there seems to be a consensus that GGG are encouraging us to play (or not play) in a particular manner. Forsaken Masters seemed* to endorse higher DPS builds and heavy flask usage in favour of the hitherto conventional defensive-focused builds. (Assuming it is the HC leagues they balance around)
1.3 reduced damage extensively (but not comprehensively ;) wink wink), and for the most part defences did not increase....if at all?

This is just my long-winded way of saying that via Game Balance GGG suggested that players should kill monsters before they can threaten you, except that melee builds had/have very limited tools at their disposal to facilitate this...... (fewer than ranged)


*Just my impressions, and what I've heard discussed by others.

I think the melee problem is a symptom of overall problems with PoE. GGG has created an extremely complex system and is now being overwhelmed by the complexity.

They are left with the choice of either nerfing the hell out of ranged and reducing their clear speeds, reinventing what melee means without introducing more desync or accidentally further empowering ranged, or throwing out their untrusted client model, or just ignoring the problem with melee and keep adding more flashy special effect AoE attacks and triggers that make my computer try to melt into my desk.

Hopefully I'm just way too pessimistic by nature and wrong as hell.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

He hasn't made it to 90+ there, least of all on a melee character. He has THREE total hardcore characters, two of which are rangers, and one which is a duelist which he SAYS is from beyond (but could really be from any past league, such as the one where ele cleave was actually good), and is only level 82 anyways.

TLDR you are making this guy into something he's not. He's a standard league player who plays, primarily, ranged characters.

He doesn't have the experience, he has no logical ground for his opinion, and there's no data to support him. So he has literally nothing to contribute to this thread, period. Every word of text he types is doing nothing other than misleading people into believing an idea that is 100% false.

I had my discussions with snorkle, but i can attest that he had leveled the Duelist and 1 Ranger as melee from my previous discussions with him in the previous leagues.

Also, until lvl 90, discussions about that matter do not matter anyways. You can easily grind to 90 on 72s-74s maps and roll them easy peasy. It is more of a patience test then a skilltest.

It does not matter if you are HC or SC. I do not want to die after 82 on SC either, bc the exp lost gets too harsh.

Melee might have some problems in terms of possibilities to react to burst, but there were several suggestions how you can minimize the risks.

The risk of dying as melee is the same as for any ranged character.

You can not offscreen Devourers. You can not offscreen leapers behind corners.Rangers might have the possibility to offscreen mobs, but if they get jumped they die more esily then any melee character.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

He hasn't made it to 90+ there, least of all on a melee character. He has THREE total hardcore characters, two of which are rangers, and one which is a duelist which he SAYS is from beyond (but could really be from any past league, such as the one where ele cleave was actually good), and is only level 82 anyways.

TLDR you are making this guy into something he's not. He's a standard league player who plays, primarily, ranged characters.

He doesn't have the experience, he has no logical ground for his opinion, and there's no data to support him. So he has literally nothing to contribute to this thread, period. Every word of text he types is doing nothing other than misleading people into believing an idea that is 100% false.

Im actually laughing at how ridiculous you are.

I have tried to walk on egg shells with you in the threads we have argued in, to give you ways out or ways of coming back to friendly terms without losing more face than you lost simply by sharing your builds etc. It's been hard not to completely destroy you, and it never helps anything to completely destroy someone in a debate because often they get such a dented ego that it becomes a war, they completely drop logic and just grasp at any straw to 'win'. If you were smart you would have met me half way on something and left it as "we will agree to disagree".

Sadly after your tree choices, gear choices and knowledge of playing the game have shown you to be fairly incompetent you have decided that your only way to 'win' is to discredit me as an individual in an attempt to distract from the fact that you have discredited yourself already. Sadly for you my hc characters are in the 80s, yours are in the 40s, I have a build guide in my sig dated from beyond league that talks about leveling that char self found in beyond, you have nothing to prove you have ever had a level 80 hc character in this game, anyone whos knows what they are talking about that looks at my character list can see Im a highly experienced player, what do we see looking at yours? Nothing, theres nothing there, time and time again you have proven your incompetence with things you have posted.

I dont want to have a verbal war with you, but you have destroyed yourself then gone on the war path to try and cover it up, Im stuck here between not wanting conflict with you but also feeling compelled to be honest for the sake of the subject matter. Its whatever mate, I dont care to carry on this nonsense with you, everyone regardless of agreeing with me or not on melee can see that you dont really know what you are talking about and you are too far gone down the broken ego madhole to ever see sense now, this conversation is pointless for all the reasons Gemdraco has pointed out and I shouldnt have ever bothered responding to you, hf and gl.

Clear patten with your posts is as following:
Post a personal attack of some kind
include 0 evidence to support your pointless opinion
Offer no logic as to why your opinion might be correct

And we are for some reason supposed to care what you think? Lol. As long as you continue to post biased unsubstantiated claims you will be completely irrelevant.

Whether you like me or not is not something I care about AT ALL. Address the issue with melee taking more damage than ranged with the same defensive options and same dps. Address the issue where melee has to waste time approaching mobs. Address the issue where duelists are at the bottom of the ladder. List some supporting stats or post a video. Provide a reason why melee can do something ranged can't. Say something, ANYTHING other than pointless irrelevant anecdotal garbage that NOBODY cares about. It's not hard to earn my fucking respect, but it starts with something coming out of your mouth that didn't originate from your pooper.

"

Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

"

LSN wrote:

"

Xavderion wrote:

They could make melee literally unkillable, it still wouldn't match a ranged char's clear speed :) Not sure what GGG could do.

It is quite easy:

aoe gems like LMP, GMP, Chain (and few others) need crit chance, crit multiplier or accuracy penalties on top of the flat damage penalty.

The solution is to alter the ranged chars and not to try bringing melee on the same level. Ranged chars are by nature hopelessly overpowered. They should work more like snipers instead of screenwide aoe. Therefore heavy aoe (with the above named gems) must be penalized more. They got to choose then if they want more aoe or more damage. Right now it is a bad joke: 2-3 shots screen clear, move on and repeat. I don't play such no brainer games, lol.

Specific penalties to those gems would only result in a migration to Herald of Ash > Burn Proliferation for AoE.
Ice Shot is already like this, and in my opinion it is damn OP for clearing packs.

I think what really needs to happen is a GGG Development Manifesto post on Game Balance, and/or Build Diversity since the two are closely related. Whenever there are major balance changes there seems to be a consensus that GGG are encouraging us to play (or not play) in a particular manner. Forsaken Masters seemed* to endorse higher DPS builds and heavy flask usage in favour of the hitherto conventional defensive-focused builds. (Assuming it is the HC leagues they balance around)
1.3 reduced damage extensively (but not comprehensively ;) wink wink), and for the most part defences did not increase....if at all?

This is just my long-winded way of saying that via Game Balance GGG suggested that players should kill monsters before they can threaten you, except that melee builds had/have very limited tools at their disposal to facilitate this...... (fewer than ranged)


*Just my impressions, and what I've heard discussed by others.

Its good points you make, I agree with most of them and the eventual conclusion you make from it all is fair.

I think some defenses did increase though, thats one thing. Back when Ranger was first reworked in open beta I did a lot of experimenting with Evasion and hybrid Armour + Evasion. Back then you could run Grace + Determination because Grace was a flat you could bloodmagic snapshot. My gear wasnt as good as it is now, but generally I was finding like 6k armour + 7k evasion achievable. Now there seems to be way more % armour and evasion on the tree, you are getting it with your life nodes, with your damage nodes etc while having more pathing efficiency allowing you to grab the usual large defense notables as well.

Defense levels on gear got reduced by the quality change, you cant run grace + determination + your other auras in the same way now. But Im getting 15k armour + 8k evasion or 10k armour + 10k evasion with hybrid setups now while just running Grace. Like I said the gear is nerfed too, but I think you can get more defense on the tree now IF you stick to ranger, duelist, marauder, bottom of the tree builds. For caster defenses Arctic Armour was nerfed, less mana regen on the tree, to me it seems like melee weighted classes got an increase in defense and casters got a nerf in this respect. You have the soul of steel node now which has basically a passive endurance charge etc.

Block was nerfed though, and that was a big thing for a lot of melee and caster builds. So its give and take, I feel like the shift is partly defense to deeps as you said, but I also think a shift is from just speccing life and block to speccing a bit of block but also armour, endurance charges, evasion etc. Pushing people into more layered setups that they had previous written off because we get this group logic thing going where its an unwritten rule that you dont go hybrid armour evasion for example, even though Im pretty sure from when I first tested it in open beta that its always been stronger than pure armour or pure evasion for melee. So casters becoming more glass cannon, melees becoming a little more rounded and defensively effective. That is, unless the caster fails to spec the extra deeps on the tree or the melee fails to spec the defense on the tree hence ending up with just the nerf without the buff that balances it.

"

Gemdraco wrote:

I really didn't want to get between you two. I have nothing against either of you.

no you were absolutely right, theres no point in either of us responding to each other, its not adding anything to the debate. In future I will make an effort to just say what I have to say as nicely as I can and just tap out when it starts to go round in circles, because its pointless.