Daggers and 2 H Weapons. How could be balanced.

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Axarion wrote:

Always fun to see the crit/dagger haters make up numbers.

2Hs need a buff to defense and base (crit/damage), no nerfs needed.

Before reading this thread I wouldn't have thought such a person existed.

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dickhole_mcghee wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

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dickhole_mcghee wrote:

You do know that the entire dagger tree was node-buffed the last tree rework because daggers and especially dual-wield daggers were sorely lacking?

They weren't lacking. They were unused because they had almost 0 effective skill support.

Then stuff like Melee Splash and Spectral Throw turned a weapon which has historically always been capable of sickening levels of single target DPS into one capable of shredding half a screen with that DPS.

If ST didn't exist daggers would be more or less getting ignored still. Well people might reave and that might be OP enough to get attention. Daggers have always had stupid good damage, they've just gotten effective AoE only very recently.

I mean this last rework for the masters expansion.

Ugh I honestly can;t be bothered to remember exact node placement from one big patch to the next. What I do know is that crit as a whole was buffed more than daggers were. Course since crit nodes are grouped near dagger nodes it amounts to the same thing.

Of course teh buff was probably intended for casters.

Buffs to dagger nodes as far as I remember were less about buffing the crit and more about buffing the rest of the node. But honestly all that matters is that crit multiplier is out of control, and that dagger base AS is all upside to a ludicrous degree.

Anyone who thinks asking for dagger nerfs is just hating on crit doesn't understand how balance and compromise work. Game doesn't need PCs doing 150k DPS.

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Autocthon wrote:

They weren't lacking. They were unused because they had almost 0 effective skill support.

Then stuff like Melee Splash and Spectral Throw turned a weapon which has historically always been capable of sickening levels of single target DPS into one capable of shredding half a screen with that DPS.

If ST didn't exist daggers would be more or less getting ignored still. Well people might reave and that might be OP enough to get attention. Daggers have always had stupid good damage, they've just gotten effective AoE only very recently.

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I mean this last rework for the masters expansion.

Ugh I honestly can;t be bothered to remember exact node placement from one big patch to the next. What I do know is that crit as a whole was buffed more than daggers were. Course since crit nodes are grouped near dagger nodes it amounts to the same thing.

Of course teh buff was probably intended for casters.

Buffs to dagger nodes as far as I remember were less about buffing the crit and more about buffing the rest of the node. But honestly all that matters is that crit multiplier is out of control, and that dagger base AS is all upside to a ludicrous degree.

Everybody relax, I didn't meant to flame, I was just trying to clarify what you meant. The way you wrote it seemed to say that melee splash and spectral throw didn't even exist with daggers before the last passive tree rework, and obv you didn't mean that, so I clarified that I meant the most recent tree rework. Now I take it you mean spectral throw et al are now viable with the added crit but I'm still not sure.

When I said the tree was buffed I didn't mean any specific node or cluster, I meant the placement now allows a character to commit more to dagger damage without committing to hi-ES or CI, as for a shadow the dagger nodes can be picked up and then the route south taken well past Ondar's. Everything is grouped closer together is what I meant, even though I'm not disagreeing with what you said about specific nodes.

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Anyone who thinks asking for dagger nerfs is just hating on crit doesn't understand how balance and compromise work. Game doesn't need PCs doing 150k DPS.

I mentioned the notion earlier that balance is less about balancing weapons and more about balancing entire characters but nobody responded; maybe this is because I don't have many posts on the forums. I've been around the internet enough to know how 'noob syndrome' works.

I'm not a big fan of the slang 'hating' but in this context it can apply, as 'hating' means irrational and/or ungrounded dislike. The guy I quoted said 'making up numbers' and I'm not hitching my wagon to that statement but I will say that melee 150k dps is very rare for single target and even more so for AOE like with reave or spectral throw. I posted this character's passive tree earlier and I could post the gear and show exactly when I went past that mark for both, and even then it required charges, to show exactly what other areas are compromised when you get that much damage going. It's not as if you pick up a few dagger nodes, get a good dagger drop and, bam, instant 6-figure dps. Even if you just wore an abyssus and a tabula and didn't care at all about survivability it would STILL be expensive, and ES gear is even more so (another guy earlier said ES gear was cheap), so you can see why somebody might think people are 'making up' numbers.

I know the numbers for etup's reaver in case you guys are looking for a case with actual dps numbers
Here http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/924551 is CI reave etup character and gear in Beyond.

He has 123K dps reave (~250 k dps with conc effect instead of inc area of effect gem) 12K+ ES no other defense.

The dagger is mirrored (mirrors were 50 ex in beyond last time I checked on poexyz ), the helm and the amulet are indeed gorgeous.

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dickhole_mcghee wrote:

Ugh I honestly can;t be bothered to remember exact node placement from one big patch to the next. What I do know is that crit as a whole was buffed more than daggers were. Course since crit nodes are grouped near dagger nodes it amounts to the same thing.

Of course teh buff was probably intended for casters.

Buffs to dagger nodes as far as I remember were less about buffing the crit and more about buffing the rest of the node. But honestly all that matters is that crit multiplier is out of control, and that dagger base AS is all upside to a ludicrous degree.

Everybody relax, I didn't meant to flame, I was just trying to clarify what you meant. The way you wrote it seemed to say that melee splash and spectral throw didn't even exist with daggers before the last passive tree rework, and obv you didn't mean that, so I clarified that I meant the most recent tree rework. Now I take it you mean spectral throw et al are now viable with the added crit but I'm still not sure.[/quote]Didn.t think you were flaming. Was just responding. And I know (dagger) ST was viable before FM release (because well... It was and is the best build since ST's release). How it relates to daggers is all on the dagger power issue.

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When I said the tree was buffed I didn't mean any specific node or cluster, I meant the placement now allows a character to commit more to dagger damage without committing to hi-ES or CI, as for a shadow the dagger nodes can be picked up and then the route south taken well past Ondar's. Everything is grouped closer together is what I meant, even though I'm not disagreeing with what you said about specific nodes.

That's more or less true. On the other hand I hate going past Ondar's so I wouldn't really care about the difference. I also more or less hate using daggers. Prefer claws. Aesthetically pleasing and all that.

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I mentioned the notion earlier that balance is less about balancing weapons and more about balancing entire characters but nobody responded; maybe this is because I don't have many posts on the forums. I've been around the internet enough to know how 'noob syndrome' works.

It's mostly because this is s situation that can only be fixed by addressing the root cause (weapon discrepancy). Making changes to anything else just causes problems.

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I'm not a big fan of the slang 'hating' but in this context it can apply, as 'hating' means irrational and/or ungrounded dislike. The guy I quoted said 'making up numbers' and I'm not hitching my wagon to that statement but I will say that melee 150k dps is very rare for single target and even more so for AOE like with reave or spectral throw. I posted this character's passive tree earlier and I could post the gear and show exactly when I went past that mark for both, and even then it required charges, to show exactly what other areas are compromised when you get that much damage going. It's not as if you pick up a few dagger nodes, get a good dagger drop and, bam, instant 6-figure dps. Even if you just wore an abyssus and a tabula and didn't care at all about survivability it would STILL be expensive, and ES gear is even more so (another guy earlier said ES gear was cheap), so you can see why somebody might think people are 'making up' numbers.

Expense is a non-issue. Balancing around rarity and expense just let's massive problems go untreated because "Oh it's rare to get it". There should be some perks to rarity, but they shouldn't be a 100% DPS difference. And it's not really that daggers easily get 150k DPS. It's that they get it easily compared to everything else, and can do it with Reave/ST/Any other skill they want (ST's DPS is somewhere between double and quadruple the listed DPS in any reasonable circumstances too). Balancing characters only exacerbates the problem, because everything takes a hit when you change passives or skills and non-dagger weapons can't afford to take one.

The root cause of weapon imbalances is weapon imbalances. Needs addressing. Doesn't matter that it's 10x as likely to get a "good" 2H Axe as it is to get a "good" dagger. Doesn't matter that it might take more supporting legendaries to hit 6 digit figures. The Axe will ALWAYS be gimped in comparative DPS given everything being equally rare. The dagger will ALWAYS have that 50% DPS lead simply because of its crazy APS.

All 2-hd weapons need is a stat stick similar the bow quiver with similar intrinsics and random attributes appropriate for 2hd melee

Bows are limited in a local attack speed modifier (not 27% attack speed, but lower)
The same should have existed for one handed weapons. No tiranical for them. More a maximum of totally 180% or something that GGG found out to be balanced. Also mods for elemental damage should have been lower on a 1-handed weapon. (The crazy base attack speed of certain daggers and 1handed swords does not help either.)
I don't call for a nerf to 1handed weapons. I find it to late to do so.

Buffing 2handed? Maybe slightly, but DPS in most cases is already not that bad.
Maybe a new skill that acts a sort of curse. A "you shall not pass!"-animation and an accuracy loss + 20-40% spell block is inflicted to closeby enemies? 2handed warriors are impressive and fearsome... ;)

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MullaXul wrote:

You do realize if/when changes are made to re balance daggers and 2h melee. Everyone will soon notice just how stupidly good bows are in both pvm and pvp. With the op'ness of dagger no one really pays attention to bows.

It's hard to forget about Harbingers and the fact that nobody's using any other rare bows anymore thanks to crit (RIP Thicket Bows).