Calling all RF people ! Need Help
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I'd quite like to help you understand this, but first I'm going to need to get some more info, and make some things clear which seem to be impeeding your understanding.
"These two lines directly contradict each other. The amount of life is very important when dealing with both regen that's based on a percentage of life and degen that's based on a percentage of life, particularly if there's also flat regen involved at any level. If they have different life values, they by definition do not have the EXACT same build. Their gear is different, they have different passives, they have different levels of skills. These are all differences, and they are all potentially relevant to causing the different result. The question is why, which involves a lot of maths. "The guy who wrote the guide has different values than your friend to start calculating from, and this causes a different result. "This is definitely not happening - if it were, then your friend would sometimes degen and sometimes regen. The fact he's always getting the same result shows nothing random is happening here - on the contrary, it's completely consistent - your friend always degens, while the writer of the guide always regens. I'm going to run the maths manually based on the streamer's info, and post the calculations here when I'm done, so you can see the calculations involved and how the result is reached. This may take some time (particularly since I've got other things I need to do as well). In the meantime, if you could get your friend to post here linking their gear and passive tree, that would help with identifying which are the important differences between the two. You could also just tell me your friend's account name and I can look that up, but posting here would be ideal as there are other forum users who are nearly as good at this as me and I suspect have more time to devote to this than I do. A screenshot of the character panel defence tab with all the relevant skills running would also be useful. MATHS:
Raiz2
Using the current gear and passive tree from the guide thread, as I can't have accurate numbers for the exact gear he had at the level 65 version.
Stats
Total Maximum Life: 6251(as seen in build guide video)
--- Maximum Fire Resistance 75% base 1% From the Barbarism notable passive. 8% From the Rise of the Phoenix unique shield. 5% From Purity of Fire level 20 (4%, affected by 26% buff effect increase) Total 89% --- Fire resistance: 8% From the Barbarism notable passive. 15% From the Fire Walker notable passive. 25% From the Rise of the Phoenix unique shield. 41% From the rare gloves 49% From Purity of Fire level 20 (39%, affected by 26% buff effect increase) All Elemental Resistances: 5% Rrom the Cruel Preparation notable passive. 8% From the Rise of the Phoenix unique shield. 3% From the rare Topaz ring. -60% from Merciless penalty Total Fire Res: 94%, capped to 89% --- Life Regenerarion %: 1.5% From the Warrior's Blood notable passive plus 0.6%, 0.6%, and 0.6% from the three other passives in the cluster. 1% From the Golem's Blood notable passive plus 0.6% and 0.6% from the two other passives in the cluster. 1% From the Master of the Arena notable passive. 1% From the Combat Stamina notable passive plus 0.3% and 0.5% from the two other passives in the cluster. 1% From the Life Regen passive in the Discipline and Training cluster. 1% From the Shaper notable passive plus 0.4%, 0.4%, and 0.4% from the three other passives in the cluster. 0.8% From the Quick recovery notable passive. Total: 12.3% --- Life Regeneration flat 6 From the Rise of the Phoenix unique shield. 4 From the rare Sapphire ring. 1 From the rare gloves Total 11 --- Increased Effect of Buffs - not in lvl 65 build 5% From the Athletiscism notable passive 15% From the Inner force notable passive plus 3% and 3% from the two other passives in the cluster. Total: 26% Maximum Life: 6251 Fire Resistance: 89% Life Regeneration: 12.3%, + 11 flat. Level 20 Righteous Fire, 20% quality: You Burn for 90% of your Maximum Life per second as Fire Damage 90% affected by 26% buff effect increase is 113% of maximum life as fire damage. 113% of 6251 max life is 7063 Thus burning for 7063 fire damage per second. 89% fire resistance means taking 11% of the fire damage 11% of 7063 is 776.93 - this value isn't rounded because it's not stored anywhere and is just calculated and used on-the-fly when determining degen/regen for each frame. 12.3% of 6251 max life is 769 (rounded) life regenerated per second, plus 11 flat regen gives a total of 780 life regenerated per second. Final Result: loosing 776.93 life and regenerating 780 life per second. overall effect is regenerating 3.07 Note that if Raiz2 didn't have, for example, the 4 flat life regen on his sapphire ring, the regen would be lowered enough to no longer outpace the degen - this build is playing very close to the line. Similarly, if he had significantly more life, the % degen and regen would increase and the flat regen wouldn't, which could also tip the scales, but I can't be bothered working out the threshold at which this occurs.
Cadet_Pedro
Stats
Total Maximum Life: 4224 --- Maximum Fire Resistance 75% base 1% From the Barbarism notable passive. 8% From the Rise of the Phoenix unique shield. 3% From Purity of Fire level 18 Total: 87% --- Fire resistance: 8% From the Barbarism notable passive. 15% From the Fire Walker notable passive. 22% From the Rise of the Phoenix unique shield. 37% From rare Helmet 16% From rare Gold ring 24% From rare Belt 37% From Purity of Fire level 18 All Elemental Resistances: 5% Rrom the Cruel Preparation notable passive. 8% From the Rise of the Phoenix unique shield. -60% from Merciless penalty Total Fire Res: 112, capped to 87% --- Life Regenerarion %: 1.5% From the Warrior's Blood notable passive plus 0.6%, 0.6%, and 0.6% from the three other passives in the cluster. 1% From the Golem's Blood notable passive plus 0.6% and 0.6% from the two other passives in the cluster. 1% From the Master of the Arena notable passive. 1% From the Combat Stamina notable passive plus 0.3% and 0.5% from the two other passives in the cluster. 1% From the Life Regen passive in the Discipline and Training cluster. 1% From the Shaper notable passive plus 0.4%, 0.4%, and 0.4% from the three other passives in the cluster. 0.8% From the Quick recovery notable passive. Total: 12.3% (11.3% without Master of the Arena) --- Life Regeneration flat 6 From the Rise of the Phoenix unique shield. 2 From rare Boots Total: 8 --- Increased Effect of Buffs - not in lvl 65 build None Total: 0% You Burn for 90% of your Maximum Life per second as Fire Damage 90% of 4224 max life is 3801 Thus burning for 3801 fire damage per second. 87% fire resistance means taking 13% of the fire damage 13% of 3801 is 494.13 - this value isn't rounded because it's not stored anywhere and is just calcualted and used on-the-fly when determining degen/regen for each frame. --- With Master of the Arena --- 12.3% of 4224 max life is 520 (rounded) life regenerated per second, plus 8 flat regen gives a total of 528 life regenerated per second. Final Result: loosing 494.13 life and regenerating 528 life per second. overall effect is regenerating 33.87 life per second. --- Without Master of the Arena --- 11.3% of 4224 max life is 477 (rounded) life regenerated per second, plus 8 flat regen gives a total of 485 life regenerated per second. Final Result: loosing 494.13 life and regenerating 485 life per second. overall effect is losing 9.13 life per second. So without Master of the Arena, it looks like you'd need 10 additional flat life regen from gear to cover the degen.
Rounding
Path of Exile uses integers for all stored stat values - stats are inherently integers. However, while I've rounded the final value of life regen per second, the truth is a little more complicated. As you can see in the character screen, life regenerated per second isn't rounded to an integer - that's because the stat stored and calculated on is actually life regenerated per minute, and it's just divided by 60 when displayed to the user - all our "per second" things are actually "per minute", and we cheat when displaying them. So if planning something like this and you want to get the rounding at that step entirely right, work it out as per minute, round that, then divide by 60 on the final result. I was focusing on the fact the stat was rounded and thus initially missed this point about what it was rounded to, and can't be bothered changing it, as in these cases it doesn't look like it matters.
Last edited by Mark_GGG on Oct 8, 2014, 11:08:29 PM
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"I'll be updating my post in a second with the maths based on Raiz2's current build, but this is actually the kicker - it looks like if you took that ring away, he couldn't pull it off any more - the total life regen (including the flat regen) exceeds the burning by slightly less than 4 life per second - cutting it really fine there. EDIT: Thanks for posting, Cadet_Pedro, I'll run your numbers as well and see what comes out - hopefully this helps us work out the best way for you to change things so you beat the degen. Last edited by Mark_GGG on Oct 8, 2014, 9:29:24 PM
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I've updated my post with the Maths based on Cadet_Pedro's build (and calculated results both with and without Master of the Arena for the extra 1% regen).
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"Mark2 looked into your current character for me, and while you no longer have the ring that was linked in the guide, you've now got different boots with 5 flat life regen per second, which covers the difference. Thanks for sharing your build with the community - I think it's quite cool that people can pull things off this close to the edge between regen/degen, and you've certainly shown sustained RF isn't completely dead. Last edited by Mark_GGG on Oct 9, 2014, 7:39:17 PM
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